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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 10, 2019 18:35:47 GMT 5
American Lion - Panthera leo atrox  prehistoric.ucoz.ru/img/orig/Panthera-Leo-atrox.jpgOrder: Carnivora Family: Felidae Length: 2.5 meters Mass: 170-350 kg, average 256 kg Diet: Large herbivores Age and Location: 34,000-11,000 years ago, Pleistocene epoch, North and South America Killing apparatus: Precision oriented jaws, manual claws One of the largest of the big cats. Is thought to be a subspecies of the modern lion, and competed with Smilodon for food. Achillobator giganticus  www.dinochecker.com/gallery/img/achillobator.pngOrder: Theropoda Family: Dromaeosauridae Length: 5-6 meters Mass: 350 kg Diet: Other dinosaurs Age and Location: 90 million years ago, Mid Cretaceous, Mongolia Killing apparatus: Slicing jaws, manual claws, pedal claws One of the largest of the dromaeosaurs. May be more primitive than some of its relatives. roninwolf1981, here's to you! |
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denis
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Post by denis on Dec 10, 2019 21:49:28 GMT 5
Strangely, I have this fight on my Who Would Win book
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 10, 2019 21:51:31 GMT 5
Wow, what a coincidence! You make a very good book BTW, I've been reading it for quite some time before I knew you.
Who'd you back here?
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denis
Junior Member
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Post by denis on Dec 10, 2019 21:53:06 GMT 5
Probably the American Lion. It probably did have a more powerful bite and was smarter. I would probably say it also had the fighting experience, it fought bears so that’s something. Achillobator did coexist with Tyrannosaurs, although none were as big or as strong as the Short Faced Bear.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 10, 2019 22:04:14 GMT 5
I'd favor the dromaeosaur; it's larger, has a more lethal bite (it might not have a stonger bite, but it has a just as deadly slicing bite, a larger head, and jaws that do not need presicion, unlike the lion's), has larger claws, and has more stamina. Intelligence is not really gonna help either as neither will be able to think fast enough, and the lion has never seen a dromaeosaur so its experience is not of much use.
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Post by roninwolf1981 on Dec 12, 2019 5:22:20 GMT 5
I'd think that the American Lion might win by a margin, since mammalian bodies are much more dense, and dromaeosaurs have a more avian physiology with hollow bones. Since these 2 are of similar weight, the American Lion's center of mass is much lower to the ground, compared to the Achillobator. The American Lion is also more stable on all 4 legs than the bipedal Achillobator. It would be a very close match, but this is just my opinion.
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Post by 6f5e4d on Dec 12, 2019 11:00:55 GMT 5
I'd prefer the lion to win, it was the same weight as Achillobator, but could make use of a more robust body to defeat the dromaeosaur.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 12, 2019 14:12:10 GMT 5
1: I'd think that the American Lion might win by a margin, since mammalian bodies are much more dense, and dromaeosaurs have a more avian physiology with hollow bones. 2: Since these 2 are of similar weight, the American Lion's center of mass is much lower to the ground, compared to the Achillobator. The American Lion is also more stable on all 4 legs than the bipedal Achillobator. 1: Well, robusticity and density isn't exactly a one way street. A good height, volume, and dimensional advantage can easily overcome and nullify any problems with robusticity. I'll make a comparison for this match in a bit for a more direct apples-to-apples comparison, but here are some size comps, by member Fragilimus335, for a similar mammal carnivore vs dromaeosaur matchup where robusticity is also said to be an advantage for the mammal: Polar bear vs Utahraptor. Just look at them and I'm sure you might be able to see the wonders a height, volume, and dimensional advantage can work. (NOTE: I am aware Utahraptor is now considered to be a good deal bigger than an average polar bear, but these do help to confer a visual of mammalian carnivore vs dromaeosaur at mass parity)   It would be quite similar with the lion. 2: Well, thing is, that wouldn't be all that much of a factor, if at all, due to the physiology of the 2 combatants - I'd in fact argue the stability goes to the dromaeosaur when both are grappling. Let me explain why: it all has to do with locomotory adaptations. The big cat is adapted to walk and bear its weight on all 4 legs, while the dromaeosaur is adapted to do so on 2 legs. When they're grappling with each other, each animal is going to be on 2 legs which would give the dromaeosaur the edge if anything. There is also some more stuff the dromaeosaur has going for it: It has a mass advantage, it has a larger skull with non-precision oriented jaws, and it has significantly bigger hand and foot claws, not to mention better stamina. I'd give it my vote at parity for those reasons and the size advantage makes me favor it even more. EDIT: Here's that size chart. American lion is maximum size (120 cm shoulder height, 350 kg) while the Achillobator is based on Utahraptor (that's what Theropoda discord server considers best) and is at the lower estimate of 5 meters and 350 kg. The lion and dromaeosaur are by Prehistoric Fauna and Hartman respectively. Don't know about you but I definitely favor the dromaeosaur going by this chart  |
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denis
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Post by denis on Dec 13, 2019 19:07:55 GMT 5
1: I'd think that the American Lion might win by a margin, since mammalian bodies are much more dense, and dromaeosaurs have a more avian physiology with hollow bones. 2: Since these 2 are of similar weight, the American Lion's center of mass is much lower to the ground, compared to the Achillobator. The American Lion is also more stable on all 4 legs than the bipedal Achillobator. 1: Well, robusticity and density isn't exactly a one way street. A good height, volume, and dimensional advantage can easily overcome and nullify any problems with robusticity. I'll make a comparison for this match in a bit for a more direct apples-to-apples comparison, but here are some size comps, by member Fragilimus335, for a similar mammal carnivore vs dromaeosaur matchup where robusticity is also said to be an advantage for the mammal: Polar bear vs Utahraptor. Just look at them and I'm sure you might be able to see the wonders a height, volume, and dimensional advantage can work. (NOTE: I am aware Utahraptor is now considered to be a good deal bigger than an average polar bear, but these do help to confer a visual of mammalian carnivore vs dromaeosaur at mass parity) It would be quite similar with the lion. 2: Well, thing is, that wouldn't be all that much of a factor, if at all, due to the physiology of the 2 combatants - I'd in fact argue the stability goes to the dromaeosaur when both are grappling. Let me explain why: it all has to do with locomotory adaptations. The big cat is adapted to walk and bear its weight on all 4 legs, while the dromaeosaur is adapted to do so on 2 legs. When they're grappling with each other, each animal is going to be on 2 legs which would give the dromaeosaur the edge if anything. There is also some more stuff the dromaeosaur has going for it: It has a mass advantage, it has a larger skull with non-precision oriented jaws, and it has significantly bigger hand and foot claws, not to mention better stamina. I'd give it my vote at parity for those reasons and the size advantage makes me favor it even more. EDIT: Here's that size chart. American lion is maximum size (120 cm shoulder height, 350 kg) while the Achillobator is based on Utahraptor (that's what Theropoda discord server considers best) and is at the lower estimate of 5 meters and 350 kg. The lion and dromaeosaur are by Prehistoric Fauna and Hartman respectively. Don't know about you but I definitely favor the dromaeosaur going by this chart I still favor the Lion. They are very similar in height, I can see the American Lion easily going for the neck. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 13, 2019 19:20:23 GMT 5
And you think the dinosaur would just stand there and do nothing about it?
If the lion tried to go for the neck, there's quite a bit of stuff it could do to counter that - such as attacking directly in retaliation with its hand claws, giant foot claws, or ~60 cm skull full of serrated teeth. Not to mention that's the maximum lion vs the lowest dromaeosaur estimate.
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Post by Shri devi on Feb 10, 2024 3:57:18 GMT 5
Question about Achillobator. Wikipedia gives its femur length as 50.5 cm but based on this image and scale bar, its more like 55 cm. 
This paper also gives a femur length of 55 cm... has Achillobator been undersized? |
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 2, 2024 1:45:17 GMT 5
Question about Achillobator. Wikipedia gives its femur length as 50.5 cm but based on this image and scale bar, its more like 55 cm.
This paper also gives a femur length of 55 cm... has Achillobator been undersized? depends. what measuring method did you use for getting that length? There are multiple ways to measure a femur, you probably just did it differently than those who got 50.5 cm |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 2, 2024 3:46:11 GMT 5
Achillobator seems to have possessed a stout maxilla like that of Deinonychus and other North American eudromaeosaurians. It seems to have focused on either large prey or at least been a generalist ( Powers et al., 2020). So I think it could indeed stack up to a similarly massive Panthera atrox. I would back it more often than not. Unless maybe the cat ambushes the dromaeosaurid from behind (a stipulation beyond the scope of these matches), there's straight-up no scenario where the cat doesn't get violently stabbed several times somewhere on its body from those talons. It doesn't matter if the dromaeosaurid actually gets the first attack in or if the lion successfully grapples the drom down. It doesn't matter if the dromaeosaurid kills the lion first or the lion kills the dromaeosaurid first. Face to face, the cat can invariably count on getting stabbed several times somewhere on its body (whether it's the thighs, stomach, or even the throat) by those biological knives. Couple that with the dromaeosaurid's own clawed forelimbs (even if they're not specialized killing weapons, even if they're not as powerful as the lion's) and its presumably proportionately massive, powerful jaws with serrated teeth (which IS a specialized killing weapon), it's just too much to deal cope with head-on. EDIT: I try not to give takes on matchups these days, but sometimes I'm bored. As long as we don't take it too seriously...
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 2, 2024 7:48:37 GMT 5
i guess it depends on how large Achillobator really was. However, wouldn't the fast reaction times, precision, or intuition of the cat come in handy here?
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 2, 2024 10:24:19 GMT 5
One under discussed advantage theropods have over carnivorans is face biting. We have a lot of fossil evidence of theropods inflicting facial wounds on one another and seagulls often get into beak biting contests. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uqtRbJHizowww.youtube.com/watch?v=LXeXYD-lz6UBesides the fact a bite from the dromeosaurs could inflict a lot of damage on the lion, it's much greater gape could potentially allow it to enclose its mouth around the lions and effectively muzzle it. |
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