Police Brutality and George Floyd

[creature386]

All Cops Are B*stards, as we all know, but some take it to greater extremes than others.
Seriously now, I'm sure you all heard of the recent case. For those living under a rock, a 46 year old African American man named George Floyd was choked to death by a cop kneeling on his throat for over eight minutes. He was clearly unarmed. Organizations like Black Lives Matter see it as just one more example I won't show the video as you can find it yourself.

Introductions aside, this topic is absolutely everywhere on my social media, so I thought I'd discuss it here.

Do you think the reactions are justified? If yes, what could be done against the problem?

I honestly don't know the answer to the last question. Structural racism is notoriously difficult to get rid of. Defunding the police is a solution I hear very often. The probably second most solution I hear is improving police training and having it focus more on deescalation like it does in other countries (the police in these countries don't have to worry about every criminal being armed though).
I'm not sure myself which is why I made this thread. Defunding sounds good, although what activists mean by that varies wildly.

[Infinity Blade]

By extreme reactions you mean the riots and looting? Well, let's get this out of the way: I certainly don't condone those.

But aside from that, and regarding the main issue here, I'm not wholly sure either. You said it yourself, structural racism dies hard. One suggestion I have heard is that all police be required to have body cameras activated (i.e. don't "rely on police to police themselves").

As for defunding, reading this was a little surprising.

While there is no contemporary example of defunding in the US, there are studies suggesting that less policing could mean less crime. In 2014 and 2015, New York officers staged a “slowdown” to protest the mayor, arguing that if they did less police work, the city would be less safe. But the opposite turned out to be true. When the officers took a break from “broken windows policing”, meaning targeting low-level offenses, there was a drop in crime. Researchers posited that aggressive policing on the streets for petty matters can ultimately cause social disruption and lead to more crime. Policing that punishes poverty, such as hefty traffic tickets and debts, can also create conditions where crime is more likely. When New York ended “stop and frisk”, crime did not rise.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/defunding-the-police-us-what-does-it-mean

That said I haven't taken the time to read any of these scientific findings in detail myself, so take this for what you will. I don't usually say much on politics (out of fear I say something stupid and divisive), but this is an exception where I felt compelled to say something.

[creature386]

Jun 7, 2020 1:50:49 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

By extreme reactions you mean the riots and looting? Well, let's get this out of the way: I certainly don't condone those.

I meant the reactions in general. Whether one thinks that the riots and looting are in any way characteristic of the reactions as a whole was supposed to be up to the poster. Deleted the "extreme" part for the sake of clarity.

As for my take on the reaction, I don't like the rhetoric of many activists (get rid of the police completely, talk about "white people" as if they were some nebulous evil hive mind, etc.), but since no-one ever listens to nuanced rhetoric, it's probably better than most alternatives.

[Supercommunist]

While race is almost certainly a contributing issue to cop brutalitly in the US, I should point out there are also a lot of egregious brutality cases involving caucasians. I remember when I was in middle school, one the most absurd stories I heard that never gained traction was a case where police tased a teenager with a broken back into a coma cause he cursed them out.



I also took a social psych class in college, and one of the things I remember is that black people are often perceived as being bigger than they are. I unfortunately don't recall the name of the study, but they found police officers would often describe black people as being huge and 6ft plus even if the individual was actually of a paltry height.

[creature386]

Eliezer Yudkowsky just posted a very lengthy post with proposals on how to improve the police. While a great philosopher, I don't think that much of Yudkowsky's political views. Nonetheless, this list is quite interesting. I don't have the time to read all of it atm, but some some proposals seem like common sense (ending the War on Drugs, for instances), some seem like good ideas and others are, well, not my cup of tea (retaining the state-sanctioned slavery that is prison labor).
Here's the post:

What would actually be the elements of a comprehensive police reboot bill as written by sane people, stopping short of ancap?
Off the top of my own head, I've got:
- Comprehensive de-forfeiture. Police departments, like every other aspect of government, must derive all of the budget from the general fund and relinquish all of their revenues without exception to the general fund. All fines, fees, and forfeitures imposed by any organization operating with the authority of government must be remitted directly to the general fund of that government and may not be retained by the organization which has been delegated the authority to impose that fee, fine, or forfeiture.
- Comprehensive de-privatization. The government may not mandate the use of any non-free private service. No labor exacted under the auspices of government (prison labor) may operate to the profit of a nongovernmental service. Anything with the legal ability to tow your car either cannot charge you a fee to get your car back, or they must be a government service and the fee to get your car back must be paid directly to the general fund of the government.
- Comprehensive de-criminalization. Possession and sale of drugs is decriminalized. Prostitution, both buying and selling, is decriminalized. "Vagrancy" is not a separate crime apart from particular harms. What's missing from a top-5 list here?
- Comprehensive de-unionization. Police unions cannot be recognized by the government, cannot be bargained with directly by the government, and has no recognized authority to extract union fees from the police. No agreement may be made between governments and police which would limit the ability of future elected officials to fire those police. People authorized by the government to use deadly force must be supervised by elected authority; and the government may not by any route bargain away the authority of present or future elected officials to remove any person authorized by the government to use deadly force.
- Separate investigation. The body which is responsible for carrying out investigations of police misconduct must have separate management and budget from the police, and must report along separate lines leading to an elected official.
- Outlaw plea-bargaining. The system may not arrest or jail more people than it has resources to give a proper trial.
- Speedy trials. The system may not arrest or jail more people than it has resources to give a trial starting within 10 days of detaining that person and terminating within 30 days. This period may be extended at the request of the defense, but not of the prosecution.
- Body cams with teeth. Any purported malfunction of a police cam is legal reason to discard the officer's testimony. A confession is not admissible evidence unless the entire interrogation procedure was recorded. Any citizen has the right to record interaction with the police or any other aspect of government. Any exception to this operation in the form of an undercover sting operation must be personally authorized and supervised by an elected official at the state level.
- De-militarization. No city or county may possess weapons above some level that stops well short of tanks. If the police need to use more force than this, they need to refer the operation to a specially authorized operation at the state level.
- Selective enforcement of a law is grounds for Constitutional rejection of that law; it is contrary to the nature of a "law" that the government not enforce it equally. Demonstrating that white people are routinely being allowed to use marijuana in practice, eg, they are using it on television and not being arrested, is legal as well as moral reason to revoke a black person's sentence for the possession of marijuana. The Fourteenth Amendment may not be evaded by passing laws which supposedly apply to everyone but are actually being enforced only on a racial minority, or any kind of minority, or even a majority but not supermajority, etcetera.
- No further fee or fine associated with court processes may be imposed on a person unless it has been explicitly incorporated into the total sentence for a crime of which they have been convicted. (May not seem to fit with the rest of the package, but this is trying to reduce the 'predatory' nature of the current relationship between governments and some marginalized communities.)
- Driver's licenses shall be suspended or revoked only for crimes directly related to bad driving. (Again, may not seem to fit, but seems to be a big deal in practice when it comes to cascading problems between marginalized people and the government.)
ADDED:
+ Qualified immunity is abolished.
+ Private correctional facilities are outlawed. Correctional facilities shall provide adequate calories, toiletries, and educational materials to all inmates, without additional charge. Inmates' wages shall be at least half the minimum wage in the local region, and their wages shall be fully retained by them and remitted to them upon their departure to begin anew. Employment at prisons is optional. Video surveillance is to be used within correctional facilities to ensure that the rule of law prevails there fully. Personnel at correctional facilities (prison guards) are considered to fall under the 'authorized use of force' rule, cannot have legally recognized unions, and the government cannot bargain away its ability to fire them. Personnel at correctional facilities will undergo de-escalation training similar to that for police, and will be reminded often during their training that the inmates must certainly include some people who are completely innocent.
+ Further amendment to comprehensive de-forfeiture: All fees and fines are paid directly to *state* coffers, never the city or county level. Dear small town, it's great that you want to be so proactive about enforcing traffic laws, but don't expect any added revenue from that. Punition and revenue are to be disentangled entirely. A spouse who needs a divorce has no choice but to interact with the government; the only reason to charge them a $450 divorce fee should be if this has been determined to be a wise and prudent form of (regressive) taxation (of vulnerable people at a time when they're most vulnerable), and not because some part of a county court system is trying to pay its bills and turn a profit like a private company. (Yes, this will require some adjustment of relative state/county/city taxation levels, and maybe some transfers pending that adjustment.)
+ Investigation is a separate mechanism from prosecution and defense. State investigation is a separate bureaucracy from prosecution, is mandated to respond equally to requests from the prosecution and defense, and must share all of its fruits equally with the prosecution and defense. The function of the state investigation is to determine the truth, not to convict.

[all]

Someone has to be the bad guy in this discussion so as usual I will be. To me both cops and gangs are basically two sides of  of same coin

Only thing that white supremacist groups, African american gangs, and republicans agree on is that they all hate guys like me. 

Now technically i shouldn't care. But the first step to fixing it in my insane opinion ( i can only respond to Chicago point because I never been to Minneapolis and I didn't know anyone directly involved with this) is to make more public parks and open areas. weaken the corporation hold on cities and have more small businesses. I know first thing Infinity Blade is going to to ask is what the *** does this has to do with this case (of course he will not use *** that is something I would be more likely to use)

However what is happening in Chicago is pretty much it is divided into north and south. North being the richer area with more Caucasians and south being poorer of the two and having more African Americans. in Chicago the first problem is overpopulation in my opinion. Don't get me wrong its not as bad as for example New York but still.
Less than hundred yards away from my house there is a golf-course. Its a beautiful piece of land with beautiful trees and so on. But the are is restricted except for few rich people. it is a waste of resources and land.  the area is perfect for the park where kids play people walk the nature trails and so on.  Right now golf players paid for it so obviously the land is theirs. If it would be decided before hand that land was to be designated as a park for example. In suburbs where I live this is needed but not as much as it is in the south. More importantly in Chicago more money should go into south side than before. with better access to education. of course that is a problem in entire country and of course I have no right to talk about it because I had my chance at school and well lets just say it didn't go well but this really isn't the point. On both north and south side of Chicago there should be more small businesses with more quality goods

More museums ( We do have one very good one and large one but there is only one Field Museum with Sue T-Rex) and they should be located all over the city not just in one specific area. 

rich and educated people would have less reason to commit crimes. Better educated police the more reasonable they would be. 

And speaking of schools when I was in my country the school was harder and more strict. However non of my teachers actually wanted me to fail. 

When I came to Chicago I don't know about African -Americans but I personally felt like a might of entire nation was set against a 13 year old boy which i was at the time.
Some African Americans probably feel the same and some of them have right to feel that way. 

If there would be less segregation in schools and more encouragement to interact respectfully with others of different race, religion, gender, social status ,money, and popularity. Plus more encouragement in general later in life those same kids would be better adults. 

When I was in School you could be disrespected or even get into physical confrontation not just because race or social status. But clothes you wear, what music you listen to or what kind of haircut you have.  All of which I find ridicules   

I used to walk a dog for a friend of mine. He was a former cop. He treated me like a son.

But i'v meet him many years later. Not all cops are like that.  when I was in high school we had lunches. Afterwards we were to pick up our treys and throw what was left to garbage and put the treys away.  This was supposed to happen after lunch. 

lunch has not ended yet so technically I should not be in any trouble for not cleaning after myself yet the security guard in school was extremely angry with me. 

He said things like "you thought you were slick" and he said I was ducking down. Keep in mind he was not referring to ducking from my responsibility of putting the trey into garbage. but me trying to avoid punishment for my actions. He said some other things to me i don't recall him swearing at me but his whole demeanor and body language made it clear that if he could get away with it he would have killed me or at leas kick the *** out of me.

When I got my GED and went to collage things were different. For the most part everyone had nothing but bast intentions. By that time however I had nothing but the worst. I was doing pretty well for a while. But one bad grade in area of the subject that I considered irrelevant and bias against me I lost my temper in front of my teacher  and had to leave school.

If I had more acceptance in my other schools I would not have reacted the way I did. 
     
When you age you are supposed to be wiser. But this is not always the case. Nurture is just as important as nature and what happened to you as a kid will have lots of impact on what you will become.

When I started high school our English teacher pointed to two students. Will (name of the first one) help (the name of the second one). then he stated No because what (The second one ) might become better than the (first one). there is no such thing as free ride everything has a price. 

This was a man whose job was to teach so expand the mind give knowledge and inspire. why doesn't anyone but me see what his job was and what he said a contradiction

On the other hand I also had a different  teacher. Whether he was a good teacher or not is debatable but he certainly tried. Students in my class wouldn't let him they were so loud and disrespectful that he was not able to teach the class. At one point he came up to the student and asked him to stop. the student stood up and pushed the teacher. teacher lifted his hands to block the student. their fingers became entangled. pretty much nothing happened after that. But student started to come to school with the bandage on his finger. I couldn't feel what he felt but i'm pretty sure that nothing really happen to his finger. But teacher got arrested and was taken away in handcuffs.
Now before you say he was a teacher he should know better the truth is that he himself in reality did nothing and the student was a senior head taller than the teacher. so he was not really a kid anymore.

Those two opposite situations both show how unjust this system is. Starting with school and then continuing on and if that is what you will learn in schools that is exactly what you will cray on later. 

Despite that while being black in white neighborhood is difficult,  being white in black neighborhood is just as bad. You can get killed in south central part of Chicago if you are white. although once i did get lost while walking and i walked through black neighborhood while walking back. there was a black man who said to me the people from my country don't come here. To tell you the truth this statement can mean many different things everything from a threat to advice that it is unwise for me to be here maybe even out of sympathy for me. In any case I didn't get robed or killed. of course place I went trough was not far south side but rather west from downtown. 

But lots of problems in my opinion are because large corporations and chains pay politicians and judges to make it almost impossible to start a small business especially in the south side of Chicago. Give discriminatory verdicts in the court, and keeping everything as it is sometimes making it even worse.

Rather than speaking of the south sides of many cities i could speak about south side of the country but this is whole another chapter.

In all this whole interconnecting system intensiveness both police and people  to go the wrong way rather then the right one. 
      
       

 

  

[creature386]

www.wsj.com/articles/cities-reverse-defunding-the-police-amid-rising-crime-11622066307
It does seem like this defunding wasn't as good of an idea as I thought. Well, it was an experiment.

[Infinity Blade]

Pity it's paywalled.

[creature386]

I've just been sent a non-paywalled version on Discord:
archive.ph/UmDwR
In all fairness, nothing indicates that there is a direct link between the cuts in police budgets and the increases in crime. However, judging by the trends described there, the "Defund the Police" movement is unlikely to have success in the future.