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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 19, 2024 17:10:29 GMT 5
I know the crab body plan is a very succesful evolutionarily speaking but does anyone know why they seem to be mediocre fighters? I am sure we have all seen videos of arthropods killing much larger verterbrates, some without veomon. So why don't we see crabs preform similar feats? The closest thing I can think of was the coconut crab and the booby video, but even then the animals where in the same weight class. A crab's chelicerae can potentially be impressive weapons at parity due to the high amounts of force they can exert (e.g. the coconut crab like you mentioned). However, they don't look like weapons that would be useful against animals much larger than them. For one I doubt they can open them as wide as the mouth of say, a vertebrate macropredator. And for that spider that you posted a video of, jaw gape isn't an issue for it at all (since it presumably relies on fangs). Secondly, the teeth of crab chelicerae never seem to actually have a shape suitable for damaging animals larger than themselves. Sure, they can be blunt and withstand a ton of force for gripping, but when have you ever seen a crab claw with the chitin equivalent of ziphodont teeth on them? So yeah, I think that crabs don't kill things larger than themselves because their weaponry just isn't suited to do it. |
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 7, 2024 3:32:04 GMT 5
Any thoughts on how the birds of prey rank relative to each other. I don't know much about them but from what I've seen the following birds seem fairly impressive: Harpy eagles, crowned eagles, and Philippine eagle : kill large prey, reputed to be some of the most eagles but there aren't many video of their hunts. Golden eagles : known to kill large prey like pronghorns and deer. Also known to kill coyotes. Mongolian hunters have also used them to hunt foxes and steppe wolves. Martial eagles: also reputed to be one of the most powerful eagle currently I haven't seem them do anything much more impressive than a golden eagle. Peregines: thanks to their mobility they appear to punch above their weight whilst fighting other birds in the air and have been known to kill eagles. digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1705&context=jrrwww.northjersey.com/story/news/2023/12/22/peregrine-falcon-beast-missing-state-line-lookout-alpine-nj/72009870007/Horned Owls and Eurasian Eagle owls: prolific hunters of other predatory birds. Goshawks: also known to hunt many predatory birds but are in turn preyed on by horned owls and eagle owls. |
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 8, 2024 20:35:25 GMT 5
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 9, 2024 4:42:15 GMT 5
The golden eagle has the benefit of being easier to film than species like the harpy or the crowned eagle. I am inclined to think they would also be capable of similar predatory feats. We just don't see them.
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 9, 2024 5:56:30 GMT 5
dont doubt that they are
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 9, 2024 6:33:33 GMT 5
what would be the best dinosaurian fighter?
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 9, 2024 8:09:46 GMT 5
That's a bit more complicated because some body plans don't work as well at certain weights.
For instance dromeosaurs are often considered the best pound for pound fighters since they had large forearms and nasty talons but a hypothetical 7 ton dromeosaur would get smoked by a tyrannosaurus since its would be to heavy and ungaily to deploy them and getting into a wrestling match at that size would also be a bad idea since a bad fall could injure them.
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Post by Exalt on Mar 9, 2024 12:06:43 GMT 5
It's hard to be sure about the Haast's eagle, but it's difficult to imagine them not being on or very near the top. Their speed may lack a bit but they would outmuscle even the other eagles, and their weapons are immense for the weight class that we're talking about here.
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 9, 2024 19:10:44 GMT 5
That's a bit more complicated because some body plans don't work as well at certain weights. For instance dromeosaurs are often considered the best pound for pound fighters since they had large forearms and nasty talons but a hypothetical 7 ton dromeosaur would get smoked by a tyrannosaurus since its would be to heavy and ungaily to deploy them and getting into a wrestling match at that size would also be a bad idea since a bad fall could injure them. fair enough. let's consider the best in their own size classes then. |
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 9, 2024 19:14:46 GMT 5
It's hard to be sure about the Haast's eagle, but it's difficult to imagine them not being on or very near the top. Their speed may lack a bit but they would outmuscle even the other eagles, and their weapons are immense for the weight class that we're talking about here. i agree. It's skull is apparently more like a condor or vulture, and seems to be elongated going from pictures |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 12, 2024 4:48:46 GMT 5
So Supercommunist I'm surprised we haven't discussed them yet, but where would you personally rank gorillas? It looks like they are indeed capable of killing each other in intraspecific combat*, but that's about the most impressive thing I can name about them in terms of combat ability. I know it's been discussed that gorillas don't really live up to their "combat potential", to the point where they flee from marauding chimps and where even leopards have been known to prey on gorillas of all ages (even if it's mostly through ambush). *I think this is a prime example of how just being able to kill a similar sized animal (including your own species) isn't enough to cut it as far as fighting anything your size goes. No one would look at the studies documenting the kind of damage gorillas do to each other and think that means they stand a chance against a similar sized big cat or bear. |
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 12, 2024 6:42:20 GMT 5
So Supercommunist I'm surprised we haven't discussed them yet, but where would you personally rank gorillas? It looks like they are indeed capable of killing each other in intraspecific combat*, but that's about the most impressive thing I can name about them in terms of combat ability. I know it's been discussed that gorillas don't really live up to their "combat potential", to the point where they flee from marauding chimps and where even leopards have been known to prey on gorillas of all ages (even if it's mostly through ambush). *I think this is a prime example of how just being able to kill a similar sized animal (including your own species) isn't enough to cut it as far as fighting anything your size goes. No one would look at the studies documenting the kind of damage gorillas do to each other and think that means they stand a chance against a similar sized big cat or bear. I think a bit above zebra tier. Or at least males rank that high. I think there has been a bit off an overcorrection of gorillas on AVA forums. I think I myself have been too harsh on them, though I don't think think I actually discussed them on this specific forum. Some primates, including gorillas do have genuinely nasty jaws which help a lot. There is this really nasty video of a langur scalping a man with one bite and baboons/mandrills seem to be a league of their own. I've read an account a baboon inflicting fatal blood loss on a rival with a single bite. I don't think a gorilla's teeth compares to a baboons at parity, butt they are certainly nasty weapons.  Ironically though, they aren't really versatile fighters, despite the fact they are usually treated as these super skilled fighters in media. Gorilla do not seem to be able to grapple effectively and their blows don't seem very efficent either. I think the most damning assesment of their fighting skill were the chimpanzee and gorilla predation interactions. gizmodo.com/for-the-first-time-ever-scientists-witness-chimps-kill-1847330442Chimpanzees themselves are really poor fighters and hunters. I've seen studies indicate that chimpanzees generally refuse to attack other chimps unless they have a massive numerical advantage. IIRC on average, chimpanzee fights are 8 on 1 affairs. Obviously it makes sense for intelligent animals to try to gain allies to and overwhelm an enemy, but you certainly don't see many species require such a huge advantage just to initiate the conflict. www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPznMbNcfO8&rco=1^The above video was what first convinced me that chimps were bad fighters. It's pretty uncommon to see so many animals fail to kill another member of their kind. Even humans do a better job. Like, if eight guys thugs were kicking me on the ground and were intent on actually mudering me, I'd probably be unconcious within a minute and die shortly afterward. Some people have argued that the chimps were deliberately prolonging the other chimps suffering but I don't really buy that explanation. Anyway back to the gorillas. The main reason why I brought up chimps was to highlight how bad chimpanzees are at killing things. So the fact that the much larger gorillas allowed a group of chimps to kill one their offspring despite their strong bonds with their young indicate gorillas are not accustomed to combat and would be totally out of depth against something like a lion or a bear. In fairness, there are also a lot of videos buffalos hesistating to confront lions despite having a massive size and numerical advantage, but again buffalos aren't known for being super intelligent and altruistic animals and have evolved an innate fear response to lions. The gorillas really shouldn't have an innate aversion to chimps, yet they hesitated to defend their young. When it comes to fighting, camelids seem to do what gorillas can but better. Camels have really nasty jaws, and there is a medical report of one biting a guy on the head so heard his eyeball popped out of his socket.  In fairness, camels are considerably larger than gorillas but I feel that their long necks help them land blows whereas a gorilla might be in trouble if a grappling predator clinched onto it. In addition, guancos are very skilled at dislodging predators. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIt0ub7PhWY&t=108sI haven't seen many animals manage to consistently batter their predators as often as guancos do. On the other hand, I've never actually see a primate actually succesfully batter a predator into submission. Other than desperate eye gouges, primates don't seem to use their hands effectively in a fight. But yeah, overall gorillas rank higher than most herbivores because its to dodge a bite than a kick or a horn thrust but they are considerably below most similar sized carnivores and I would put very formidable herbivores like boar and gemsbok above them. EDIT: Now that I think about it, roughly around zebra tier does sound fair. Adult zebras, generally speaking are too much for a leopard to handle but on occasion have been known to be killed. Likewise, an adult gorilla is probably too dangerous for a leopard in normal circumstances, but there are known predation attempts on adults. On another subject, here is more evidence that rats are more formidable than most rodents: This rat looks no bigger than the chimpmunk it killed. bioone.org/journals/northeastern-naturalist/volume-30/issue-4/045.030.0403/Brown-Rat-Rattus-norvegicus-Predation-on-An-Eastern-Chipmunk-Tamias/10.1656/045.030.0403.short#:~:text=Brown%20Rats%20appear%20to%20have,wild%2C%20small%2Dmammal%20species.  |
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Post by Supercommunist on Mar 12, 2024 10:50:48 GMT 5
That's a bit more complicated because some body plans don't work as well at certain weights. For instance dromeosaurs are often considered the best pound for pound fighters since they had large forearms and nasty talons but a hypothetical 7 ton dromeosaur would get smoked by a tyrannosaurus since its would be to heavy and ungaily to deploy them and getting into a wrestling match at that size would also be a bad idea since a bad fall could injure them. fair enough. let's consider the best in their own size classes then. IIRC Dromaeosaurus appeared to be a very formidable predator for its size and might have been a contendor for the best fighter in the dinosaur "light weight division". There is an extensive write up in this reddit comment section. Since it's a reddit comment, obviously take it with a grain of salt but I don't see anything truly objectionable about it, especially since they cited sources. www.reddit.com/r/Naturewasmetal/comments/12djsy9/dromaeosaurus_the_wolverine_of_late_cretaceous/According to one paper, Dromaeosaurus had a 885 newton bite, a force comparable to a 13 kg Curvier's dwarf's caiman's 900 newton bite, about 100 newtons higher than a deinoychus', and well over half as powerful as much larger gray wolf's bite (1210 newtons). Unlike the other two animals it would have also benefited from having ziphodont teeth. peerj.com/articles/13731/ onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/joa.13804 |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Mar 12, 2024 20:31:59 GMT 5
Any thoughts on how the birds of prey rank relative to each other. I don't know much about them but from what I've seen the following birds seem fairly impressive: Harpy eagles, crowned eagles, and Philippine eagle : kill large prey, reputed to be some of the most eagles but there aren't many video of their hunts. Golden eagles : known to kill large prey like pronghorns and deer. Also known to kill coyotes. Mongolian hunters have also used them to hunt foxes and steppe wolves. Martial eagles: also reputed to be one of the most powerful eagle currently I haven't seem them do anything much more impressive than a golden eagle. Peregines: thanks to their mobility they appear to punch above their weight whilst fighting other birds in the air and have been known to kill eagles. digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1705&context=jrrwww.northjersey.com/story/news/2023/12/22/peregrine-falcon-beast-missing-state-line-lookout-alpine-nj/72009870007/Horned Owls and Eurasian Eagle owls: prolific hunters of other predatory birds. Goshawks: also known to hunt many predatory birds but are in turn preyed on by horned owls and eagle owls. I remember making a post a while ago based on data from one study on how birds of prey actually kill prey. Okay, on a serious note, I was recently inspired to post here having recently learned about birds of prey in my ornithology class. The two links in Black Ice's original post no longer work; however, I at least know what the first one (the kestrel one) was ( Csermely et al., 1998->). I also have Fowler et al. (2009)-> here. A few of the interesting bits from that paper (some of which are consistent with what Black Ice posted above). 1.) Accipitrids (hawks and eagles) have hypertrophied talons on digits I and II to restrain large struggling prey while they are dismembered. 2.) Falconids have only slightly enlarged D-I and D-II talons, and all of their talons are modestly sized. Falconinins in particular rely on strike impact to immobilize prey and breaking their necks with the tomial tooth. 3.) The osprey has large hooked talons on each digit for piscivory (a less extreme version of this morphology is seen in fishing eagles). 4.) Strigiformes (owls) have enlarged, more uniformly sized, and weakly curved talons to help maximize grip strength (along with other adaptations). They strangle prey and for this reason usually (as someone in my ornithology class and Wikipedia's great horned owl page told me, great horned owls sometimes do) don't take large prey (falconids do this more, and accipitrids even more so). 5.) Not a major conclusion of the paper but still really cool: " We observed two videos in which accipitrines used the enlarged talon of D-II to prise open the body cavity of prey, giving access to the nutritious internal organs.". On a family basis, I would say accipitrids are indeed the best fighters as their weaponry seems to be the deadliest. Falconids below them, and owls below even them (although, even owls can take surprisingly large prey on occasion). On a species level, I don't really know, but the Haast's eagle was mentioned, and it definitely deserves to be up there as one of the best fighters. Literally everything about that thing was made to punch far above its weight. The skull was better suited for attacking large prey than any other's. Its talons were "only" as long as a harpy eagle's, but they were thicker and more robust with deeper flexor tubercles. |
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Post by razor45dino on Mar 12, 2024 22:34:41 GMT 5
I too suspect Dromaeosaurus may be up there as well. There’s a problem though and that’s that not much aside from the skull and some bits of Dromaeosaurus is actually known, so we don’t really know much about it’s postcranial skeleton. Some reconstructions also depict it as a pinhead, although to be fair to it that is a “best guess”. It’s claw also seemed to be reduced compared to Velociraptor. www.deviantart.com/drscotthartman/art/Best-guess-Dromaeosaurus-536236816However its bite force is indeed extremely impressive, especially for an animal its size. ( I believe the specimen used in the study was the type that is around 2.5 meters according to hartman and that should be about 24-30 kg ) which does suggest Utahraptor and its larger cousins also had powerful bites especially relative to their size. Would they compare to birds of prey though? There are raptors that can reach the “lightweight” division size close to dromaeosaurus and velociraptor, so technically they would qualify for this spot too. Obviously the birds use a beak instead of gigantic skulls with ziphodont teeth, and also can’t use their wings as much for combat, but they do have flight and giant claws on all four toes. Birds of prey are pretty much the modern correlate that has the most in common with small dromaeosaurs. I think Phorusrachids might not be as formidable as a dromaeosaur but I would argue they are also up there. The force produced by the beak of kelenken is impressive and they also have recurved sickle claws. Their kicks were definitely serious. Their stance makes them very tall opponents so many short ones would have a hard time getting to the head without getting kicked.  |
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