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Post by Runic on Nov 29, 2013 19:06:36 GMT 5
It´s really hard to miss something if you are swinging around a huge spiked tail, even if you have no perfect view of your opponent. If the Allosaurid is approaching from the rear, it cannot do much as long as the tail keeps facing it, it cannot do much unless you suggest parries, crouches and ninja-like jumps from it. The carnosaur´s best chance is to utilise its edge in mobility to outmaneuver Stegosaurus and try to get to the neck or flanks unscathed or bite a leg. imo 50/50, wherein it can also happen that one of them gets injured and dies later on. It actually is very easy to miss seeing as how the tail is not a rubberband and has limits to its reach and flexibility and its lack of stereoscopic vision (Before someone quotes me complaining about how this is not an advantage i want them to look it up and just take a guess at its importance at swinging a tail precisely). And how stegosaurus evidently never faced a allosaurus with its ass but instead its flanks. That alone should ring the brain bell. And everyone keeps talking about this "if Allosaurus approaches from the rear" thing which is frankly dumbfounding. An Allosaurus is not gonna be stupid enough as to deliberately go to the ass of the stegosaurus to attack it. It would go for the frontal side of it or the head. Not sit back there playing peek a boo with the tail like everyone here thinks. |
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 29, 2013 19:47:30 GMT 5
It´s really hard to miss something if you are swinging around a huge spiked tail, even if you have no perfect view of your opponent. If the Allosaurid is approaching from the rear, it cannot do much as long as the tail keeps facing it, it cannot do much unless you suggest parries, crouches and ninja-like jumps from it. The carnosaur´s best chance is to utilise its edge in mobility to outmaneuver Stegosaurus and try to get to the neck or flanks unscathed or bite a leg. imo 50/50, wherein it can also happen that one of them gets injured and dies later on. Given the fact that stegosaurus was quite squat (although its hind legs were longer than its forelegs), the allosaurus biting its leg doesn't seem as probable. Possible, but not probable. A flank or neck bite seems to be a lot more of a common method given the allosaurus' jaw and tooth structure. But it could, very well, be quite effective still if you ask me. The allosaurus could easily cripple the herbivore if it manages to sever a tendon. But again, a leg bite was probably much less common than many people think. He knows that allosaurus would not simply attack from the rear. In the event of a confrontation between allosaurus and stegosaurus, the herbivore would probably face one of its flanks toward its opponent while turning its head towards the predator and while keeping its tail ready as its primary defense posture. The same thing goes for ankylosaurs. |
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Post by Runic on Nov 29, 2013 21:50:57 GMT 5
It´s really hard to miss something if you are swinging around a huge spiked tail, even if you have no perfect view of your opponent. If the Allosaurid is approaching from the rear, it cannot do much as long as the tail keeps facing it, it cannot do much unless you suggest parries, crouches and ninja-like jumps from it. The carnosaur´s best chance is to utilise its edge in mobility to outmaneuver Stegosaurus and try to get to the neck or flanks unscathed or bite a leg. imo 50/50, wherein it can also happen that one of them gets injured and dies later on. Given the fact that stegosaurus was quite squat (although its hind legs were longer than its forelegs), the allosaurus biting its leg doesn't seem as probable. Possible, but not probable. A flank or neck bite seems to be a lot more of a common method given the allosaurus' jaw and tooth structure. But it could, very well, be quite effective still if you ask me. The allosaurus could easily cripple the herbivore if it manages to sever a tendon. But again, a leg bite was probably much less common than many people think. He knows that allosaurus would not simply attack from the rear. In the event of a confrontation between allosaurus and stegosaurus, the herbivore would probably face one of its flanks toward its opponent while turning its head towards the predator and while keeping its tail ready as its primary defense posture. The same thing goes for ankylosaurs. Hence "Parallel fighting" as I said in my earlier post. The Allosaurus would have its flank parallel to the stegosaurus tail while it kept trying to get to the head. Just picture a yin/yang image. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 29, 2013 22:36:22 GMT 5
Godzillasaurus: I was listing the possibilities of attack it had, not claiming anything about their relative frequency (it's obvious a leg bite becomes a more likely option the taller the prey animal is relative to the predator that bites it). Any of those would serve the purpose of immobilising or killing the herbivore quickly. A Stegosaurus that can't turn is a dead Stegosaurus in this case, so is one with a big bleeding hole in its flank, and especially one with a big bleeding hole in its neck. Runic: Ok, say I give you a spiked club and let you wave around with it. Let's be fair and assume you only have one eye. I still won't get past that club, assuming I can neither duck below it, nor jump above it, nor deflect it. But I don't understand why you are arguing about that since you, for some unknown reason, seem to be so sure they would fight with the Allosaurus standing next to the Stegosaurus (which is really an increadibly dumb way for the Allosaurus to fight since it would fully expose it to tailswipes. coming in at an approximate right angle makes much more sense). Also, for some reason you seem to believe binocular vision was important, while here the opposite is the case; it's better to have a wide field of vision if you want to swipe at something that's behind you. Binocular vision would be completely useless for a Stegosaurus. A less than 90° turn of the head and neck would easily bring the Allosaur into the field of vision. Hence, Allosaurus needs to outmaneuver Stegosaurus to attack anything without being speared. It's a risky thing to approach something with 1m long thagomizers twirling around. And in case you wanna say a tailswipe wouldn't be very dangerous weapons, just read Mallison 2011 on the defense capabilities of Kentrosaurus (and keep in mind Kentrosaurus is at best half the size of Stegosaurus). Stegosaur tails have the capacity of breaking decent-sized bones (such as ribs or even skulls), slashing through superficial muscles and blood vessels and penetrating deeply, and even if not enough direct damage is done its very likely the momentum would be sufficient to topple the attacker. Overall, modeling results suggest that Kentrosaurus was capable of defending itself effectively against any single threat, so that coordi- nated attacks by two or more predators may have been required to endanger the animal. The only way however that it can do so is by circling it in a wide arc, avoiding the tail, which of course makes it more difficult for it and easier for the Stegosaur to keep it within its swiping range. There's a reason I'm claiming this to be ~50/50 and not a Stegosaur victory, and that's that I think there's a good chance Allosaurus could indeed rush in and take a bite at the neck, head, flank etc and get away without immediately lethal injuries. But not in more than half the cases, again, no matter how much you object to this, not on its own and without the element of surprise on its side. Claiming that is just the usual overrating of predators compared to very dangerous prey species.
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Post by Runic on Nov 30, 2013 0:18:29 GMT 5
Godzillasaurus: I was listing the possibilities of attack it had, not claiming anything about their relative frequency (it's obvious a leg bite becomes a more likely option the taller the prey animal is relative to the predator that bites it). Any of those would serve the purpose of immobilising or killing the herbivore quickly. A Stegosaurus that can't turn is a dead Stegosaurus in this case, so is one with a big bleeding hole in its flank, and especially one with a big bleeding hole in its neck. Runic: Ok, say I give you a spiked club and let you wave around with it. Let's be fair and assume you only have one eye. I still won't get past that club, assuming I can neither duck below it, nor jump above it, nor deflect it. But I don't understand why you are arguing about that since you, for some unknown reason, seem to be so sure they would fight with the Allosaurus standing next to the Stegosaurus (which is really an increadibly dumb way for the Allosaurus to fight since it would fully expose it to tailswipes. coming in at an approximate right angle makes much more sense). Also, for some reason you seem to believe binocular vision was important, while here the opposite is the case; it's better to have a wide field of vision if you want to swipe at something that's behind you. Binocular vision would be completely useless for a Stegosaurus. A less than 90° turn of the head and neck would easily bring the Allosaur into the field of vision. Hence, Allosaurus needs to outmaneuver Stegosaurus to attack anything without being speared. It's a risky thing to approach something with 1m long thagomizers twirling around. And in case you wanna say a tailswipe wouldn't be very dangerous weapons, just read Mallison 2011 on the defense capabilities of Kentrosaurus (and keep in mind Kentrosaurus is at best half the size of Stegosaurus). Stegosaur tails have the capacity of breaking decent-sized bones (such as ribs or even skulls), slashing through superficial muscles and blood vessels and penetrating deeply, and even if not enough direct damage is done its very likely the momentum would be sufficient to topple the attacker. Overall, modeling results suggest that Kentrosaurus was capable of defending itself effectively against any single threat, so that coordi- nated attacks by two or more predators may have been required to endanger the animal. The only way however that it can do so is by circling it in a wide arc, avoiding the tail, which of course makes it more difficult for it and easier for the Stegosaur to keep it within its swiping range. There's a reason I'm claiming this to be ~50/50 and not a Stegosaur victory, and that's that I think there's a good chance Allosaurus could indeed rush in and take a bite at the neck, head, flank etc and get away without immediately lethal injuries. But not in more than half the cases, again, no matter how much you object to this, not on its own and without the element of surprise on its side. Claiming that is just the usual overrating of predators compared to very dangerous prey species. You actually could easily get past me swinging it with one eye because i lost halve of my vision. I could explain how in baby terms if you want? And please spare me the pathetic predators overratedness argument. It is not worth my time. But since you're so adamant stegosaurus defense worked as you said then explain why there's evidence of Allosaurus bite marks on the side and frontal plates on stegosaurus back? Or how bout the one where there were marks indicating Allosaurus attacked the head? A wolf can defend itself against several other wolves at once, yet that same wolf can also get killed by a lone wolf in a fight pretty quickly. Thus capacity to defend =\= actual effectiveness with it. This supports parallel fighting (whose the dumb one now?) books.google.com/books?id=Mr16gm7VRCAC&pg=PA348&lpg=PA348&ots=xx4Ay-Npk7&focus=viewport&dq=allosaurus+predation+on+stegosaurus&output=html_textEven then a flanking isn't even necessary. Say stegosaurus misses a swing or Allosaurus manages to get past the spikes and bite down on the base of its tail. Then what? |
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Post by creature386 on Nov 30, 2013 0:24:20 GMT 5
Also, for some reason you seem to believe binocular vision was important, while here the opposite is the case; it's better to have a wide field of vision if you want to swipe at something that's behind you. Binocular vision would be completely useless for a Stegosaurus. The fact that binocular vision would be even more disadvantageous does not mean that the disadvantages through seeing your opponent with only one eye are negligible. Black Ice's point was only that Stegosaurus would have a hard time aiming properly. Good point about binocular vision though. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 30, 2013 1:13:44 GMT 5
It wouldn't need to aim much, as I have (unsuccessfully) tried to bring across.
And how if I may ask? That you only see me with one eye doesn't change the fact that you A. see me and B. you can swipe at me. Unless I can move myself in to attack and out of your range quicker than you can do that one movement of your arm (or Stegosaurus that one movement of its tail), I cannot get past the defense.
Well, the do the same with your "predators always win"-argument please!
Ever considered an Allosaurus may have attacked and bitten the Stegosaurus in those regions, and perhaps without lining up side by side as if to play some game where the faster it's impaled, the higher its score is?
That firstly was totally unrelated to the rest pf your paragraph, and secondly I absolutely don't get how it is an argument against mine.
I cannot tell because the book is not accessible. will try later with a US proxy.
Let's see what this would mean. Assume Allosaurus is standing at a save distance of, say, 1m from the tail tip of Stegosaurus. This means it has to first acellerate its 2t body (assuming average weights, at larger sizes this of course gets even more difficult) and then propell itself over a distance of at least 4m to even have its head reach the hip or tail base, another 3-4m if it wants to reach the neck (and even then it may still be subject to a tailswipe), and that all quicker than the Stegosaurus can perform that single motion of its tail to make some shashlik.
The exact reason why your "lining up bodies"-hypothesis is, to say the least, extremely risky for the carnivore. This is also the reason why sidestepping and trying to circumvent the tail is likely a more promising approach.
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Post by Runic on Nov 30, 2013 2:23:47 GMT 5
Never ends with you and me does it? Then I guess you would be hitting air and wasting energy than actually hitting something. It's something known as countering or intercepting, google it. And yes, even animals are capable of this basic action. I almost said something out of line, do you enjoy false claiming stuff I say? Please quote when I ever said the bolded part. Must I really treat you like Taipan and Grey? Basic comprehension 101 Theropod Now I want you to aim your attention to the bolded part and to the underlined part of my earlier post Kentrosaurus has the ability to defend itself from a friggin T.rex if it wanted, yet that will not happen more often than not in a death battle. Must I baby it down more or do you get it? From the book I posted  And also to the fact an allosaurus attacking a stegosaurus perpendicular to its body the whole time is unlikely. And sorry to burst your bubble but 2 tons is not a lot of weight. Anything else you need clarified cupcake? |
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Post by Godzillasaurus on Nov 30, 2013 3:00:44 GMT 5
I see what you mean there. My apology for misunderstanding you.
Then the base of the tail would probably bleed a lot and possible have severed musculature and tissue. That does not mean that it would be rendered useless, however. It would actually be rather difficult to do so anyway, as the base of the tail still features dorsal "spines". Stegosaurid spines were not used for defensive purposes, but they could still easily shield it from a bite. The allosaurus would have to be spot-on in attacking the base of the tail for its bite to actually connect with the tail itself, and not the herbivore's "spines".
The stegosaurus' head, as slender as it was, is a perfect target for a predator, as it was not armored like those of ankylosaurs and lacked horns. The primary target for allosauroids was most likely the flanks, but still, you (should) get my point. And, as I just stated, a bite on any of the stegosaurus' dorsal spines wouldn't do much, even if they weren't adapted to serve as armor, contrary to popular belief (yes, some people actually think of them as a form of armor).
Nobody. Man, you really need to let things go, you know that. And I though I got angry too easily...
Both animals probably got to 4-5 tons at max...
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Post by creature386 on Nov 30, 2013 14:20:57 GMT 5
Both animals probably got to 4-5 tons at max... Only if we include Epanterias, what we mostly don't do in Allosaurus related matchups. And, as I just stated, a bite on any of the stegosaurus' dorsal spines wouldn't do much, even if they weren't adapted to serve as armor, contrary to popular belief (yes, some people actually think of them as a form of armor). If they really had a thermoregulatory function, they'd be filled with blood vessels and nerves, so a bite there would be at least quite painful. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 30, 2013 15:56:27 GMT 5
Nope  You would just swing that thing around in time to hit whatever approaches you and cannot dodge. As I have explained to you, there would certainly be enough time for that action. And how exactly are you imagining that action? This is not fencing, allosaurus can not just block a tailswipe, let alone counterattack at the same time. I'm not. That's your argument, all the time. You argue that a predator is automatically superior, you have done so or at least agreed with that point on Triceratops vs T. rex and it is clear you are doing it here. That was your whole argument throughout the debate, you basically made no single attempt of actually explaining HOW that would apply to this case. Not you are trying, but building up completely unrealistic scenarios for that purpose. A Stegosaur is not a wolf. Its weaponery is on the opposite end of the animal to begin with. Then it consists of thagomizers, not teeth. And it has to do very little but wait for its attacker to make the mistake of stepping inside its swiping range to cripple or kill it, while a wolf has to actively try to get a hold on its opponent, consequently exposing itself to its opponent. And there has to be a winner in a fight between two wolves, which, considering the nearly identical built and weapons in an intraspecific conflict, will be the one that's a few fractions of a second faster and/or a little larger/stronger. You have none of that here. You have one animal waving around a 3m+ tail with huge spikes, and another animal that will either get past it and kill the herbivore, or fail while doing so and get killed itself. You really never seem to look at the other side of your own arguments, do you? Not even at my arguments for that matter. Firstly, I'm not suggesting this happening more often than not. Secondly, Allosaurus is about one third the size of a T. rex, and Stegosaurus is about twice the size of Kentrosaurus. Thirdly, that's the exact thing you don't want to comprehend about the predator; That it has the capability of hunting something does not automatically mean it could kill it more often than not in a fighting situation. contra: No, ratzher to the fact that attacking paralell to the body results in a higher risk of injury for the predator... It's at least 20 times your weight. Lets see whether even you could run in AND out faster than another person can move his or her weapon to intercept you. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 30, 2013 16:05:57 GMT 5
Indeed I suppose a well-placed bite by an Allosaurus (basicranium or anteriormost aspect of neck) could decapitate a Stegosaurus. I presume that or a bite severing the throat would be its quickest way of killing, and also the savest since it requires the least proximity to the tail. But given it could place it without sustaining severe injuries itself, almost any region of the postcranium would also be suitable (the best of course being the flank/abdominal region), including tights, calves, forelimb and tail-base.
I also agree even tough I doubt that was their main purpose those plates would pose quite a hindrance for biting the dorsal surface of the animal (which might otherwise be a viable option on the tail or neck base to incapacitate part the victim).
He isn't actually angry, that's just his normal style of posting. Don't take it to heart.
Epanterias likely even a little more, but we haven't cleared up what to use due to uncertainty on sample size and the largest Stegosaurus specimens.
Allosaurids have very mobile necks and very wide gapes, it likely has the capability to bite the tail laterally, not dorsally, so that its bite could sever important muscles required for the defensive action of the tail and/or for locomotion.
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Post by creature386 on Nov 30, 2013 21:10:35 GMT 5
A Stegosaur is not a wolf. Its weaponery is on the opposite end of the animal to begin with. Then it consists of thagomizers, not teeth. And it has to do very little but wait for its attacker to make the mistake of stepping inside its swiping range to cripple or kill it, while a wolf has to actively try to get a hold on its opponent, consequently exposing itself to its opponent. And there has to be a winner in a fight between two wolves, which, considering the nearly identical built and weapons in an intraspecific conflict, will be the one that's a few fractions of a second faster and/or a little larger/stronger. You have none of that here. Uhm, this was just a random example for his capability?effectiveness argument, so how is this relevant? Allosaurids have very mobile necks and very wide gapes, it likely has the capability to bite the tail laterally, not dorsally, so that its bite could sever important muscles required for the defensive action of the tail and/or for locomotion. It could do so (similar to how Tyrannosaurus bit off the horn of Triceratops in one fossil), but this would be very dangerous, so it would be better to avoid the tail. I know that this is just the base, but attacking the flanks would still be the safest option. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 30, 2013 23:42:22 GMT 5
It's relevant that his argument does not apply here. Of course a wolf can be killed by another wolf. Usually said other wolf will be a physically superior in some way (be it strenght, speed, durability or stamina) since their builts and weapons are the same, but of course it can also just be lucky. That has nothing to do with the fight between two animals of different species, weapons and builts.
I agree, I was speaking hypothetically. Attacking this region would be extremely dangerous since it would most likely bring most of its own body into tail-swipe range.
I think going for the neck, head or forequarters is even safer. In any case I think it would attack from the front or side, to avoid bringing its body in close proximity to the tail (as it inevitably would if it tried to run in from the back at too low an angle).
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Post by creature386 on Dec 1, 2013 1:19:28 GMT 5
It's relevant that his argument does not apply here. Of course a wolf can be killed by another wolf. Usually said other wolf will be a physically superior in some way (be it strenght, speed, durability or stamina) since their builts and weapons are the same, but of course it can also just be lucky. That has nothing to do with the fight between two animals of different species, weapons and builts. As I said, this is just an example, it doesn't have to be an intraspecific conflict. For example many macropredator may be able to kill far larger prey, but that doesn't mean they will do so in a fight (or even frequently in a hunt). I think going for the neck, head or forequarters is even safer. Yeah, but it would be a bit harder than attacking than attacking the flanks. |
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