Bengal Tiger vs Saltwater Crocodile

[DinosaurMichael]

Bengal Tiger - Panthera tigris tigris
The Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris tigris) is a tiger subspecies native to the Indian subcontinent that in 2010 has been classified as endangered by IUCN. The total population is estimated at fewer than 2,500 individuals with a decreasing trend, and none of the Tiger Conservation Landscapes within the Bengal tiger's range is large enough to support an effective population size of 250 adult individuals. The Bengal tiger is the most numerous tiger subspecies with populations estimated at 1,520–1,909 in India, 440 in Bangladesh, 124–229 in Nepal and 67–81 in Bhutan. Bengal is traditionally fixed as the typical locality for the binomial Panthera tigris, to which the British taxonomist Reginald Innes Pocock subordinated the Bengal tiger in 1929 under the trinomial Panthera tigris tigris. The Bengal tiger's coat is yellow to light orange, with stripes ranging from dark brown to black; the belly and the interior parts of the limbs is white, and the tail is white with black rings. Male Bengal tigers had a total length, including the tail, from 270 to 310 cm (110 to 120 in), while females range from 240 to 265 cm (94 to 104 in). Tails are 85 to 110 cm (33 to 43 in) long, and height at the shoulders is 90 to 110 cm (35 to 43 in). The head and body length of three males captured in Nagarahole National Park ranged from 189 to 204 cm (74 to 80 in), with a tail length of 100 to 107 cm (39 to 42 in), while a single female measured 161 cm (63 in), with a tail length of 87 cm (34 in). The average weight of males is 221.2 kg (488 lb), while that of females is 139.7 kg (308 lb). Males captured in Chitwan National Park in the early 1970s had an average weight of 235 kg (520 lb) ranging from 200 to 261 kg (440 to 580 lb), and that of the females was 140 kg (310 lb) ranging from 116 to 164 kg (260 to 360 lb). Males from the northern India are as large as Siberian tigers with a greatest length of skull of 332 to 376 mm (13.1 to 14.8 in). The tiger in India has no definite mating and birth seasons. Most young are born in December and April. Young have also been found in March, May, October and November. In the 1960s, certain aspects of tiger behaviour at Kanha National Park indicated that the peak of sexual activity was from November to about February, with some mating probably occurring throughout the year.



Saltwater Crocodile - Crocodylus porosus
The saltwater crocodile, also known as estuarine or Indo-Pacific crocodile, (Crocodylus porosus) is the largest of all living reptiles. It is found in suitable habitats in Northern Australia, the eastern coast of India and parts of Southeast Asia. The saltwater crocodile has a longer muzzle than the mugger crocodile: its length is twice its breadth at the base. The saltwater crocodile has fewer armor plates on its neck than other crocodilians, and its broad body contrasts with that of most other lean crocodiles, leading to early unverified assumptions that the reptile was an alligator. Saltwater crocodile skull from The Museum of Zoology, Saint PetersburgNewly hatched saltwater crocodiles measure about 25 to 30 centimetres (9.8–12 in) long and weigh an average of 70 grams (2.5 oz). Males reach sexual maturity at around 3.3 metres (11 ft) at around 16 years of age, while females reach sexual maturity at 2.1 metres (6.9 ft) and 12–14 years. An adult male saltwater crocodile's weight is 409 to 1,000 kilograms (900–2,200 lb) and length is normally 4.1 to 5.5 metres (13–18 ft). However, mature males can exceed 6 metres (20 ft) and weigh more than 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb) and this species is the only extant crocodilian to regularly reach or exceed 4.8 metres (16 ft). Weight can vary enormously based upon condition and age, older males tending to outweigh younger ones since they maintain prime territories with access to better, more abundant prey. For example, crocodiles at 4.8 metres (16 ft) long have ranged in mass variously from 522 kilograms (1,150 lb) to 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb). This species has the greatest sexual dimorphism of any modern crocodilian, with females being much smaller than males. Typical female body lengths in the range of 2.3 to 3.5 metres (8–11 ft). The largest female on record measured about 4.2 metres (14 ft). The mean weight of the species as a whole is roughly 450 kilograms (1,000 lb). Saltwater crocodile outside Cairns, QueenslandThe largest size saltwater crocodiles can reach is the subject of considerable controversy. The longest crocodile ever measured snout-to-tail and verified was the skin of a dead crocodile, which was 6.2 metres (20 ft) long. As skins tend to shrink slightly after removal from the carcass, this crocodile's living length was estimated at 6.3 metres (21 ft), and it could have weighed more than 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb). Incomplete remains (the skull of a crocodile shot in Orissa)[ have been claimed to come from a 7.6-metre (25 ft) crocodile, but scholarly examination suggested a length no greater than 7 metres (23 ft). There have been numerous claims of crocodiles in the 9-metre (30 ft) range: the crocodile shot in the Bay of Bengal in 1840, reported at 10 metres (33 ft); another killed in 1823 at Jalajala on the main island of Luzon in the Philippines reported at 8.2 metres (27 ft); a reported 7.6 metres (25 ft) crocodile killed in the Hooghly River in the Alipore District of Calcutta. However, examinations of these animals' skulls actually indicated animals ranging from 6 to 6.6 metres (20–21.7 ft). A crocodile shot in Queensland in 1957 was reported to be 8.63 metres (28.3 ft) long, but no verified measurements were made and no remains of this crocodile exist. A "replica" of this crocodile has been made as a tourist attraction. Many other unconfirmed reports of crocodiles exceeding 8 metres (28+ ft) have been made but these are highly unlikely. With recent restoration of saltwater crocodile habitat and reduced poaching, it is possible that 7-metre (23 ft) crocodiles are alive today. Guinness has accepted a claim of a 7-metre (23 ft), 2,000 kg (4,400 lb) male saltwater crocodile living within Bhitarkanika Park in the state of Orissa, India, although, due to the difficulty of trapping and measuring a very large live crocodile, the accuracy of these dimensions has yet to be verified.

[Godzillasaurus]

The cat stands virtually no chance in even shallow water. It is possible that it would be able to kill it similarly to how that one tiger killed that mugger(?) crocodile in that one popular video that every cat fanboy uses in these matchups, but note that the croc in that video did not appear to have been very large (probably around maybe 13 feet or so in length, I will have to rewatch it sometime). Assuming that this is at maximum sizes and weights, a male salty would dominate, even on land.

Although the crocodile in itself was not necessarily the best designed physically for simple traumatic killing (crocodiles kill larger animals with drowning or torsional tearing), a few well-placed bites to the tiger's limbs could easily break them (given the immense biting force and crushing adaptations of the reptile, measured at around 3000-5000 pounds if I remember correctly), not to mention the possible use of rolling to further increase the damage done. The crocodile could incapitate the tiger with a couple well-placed and powerful enough bites to the limbs and possibly the head and neck region (may not kill it, but it would certainly damage it immensely), while the tiger would obviously need to not only penetrate the reptile's heavily armored carapace but also successfully damage its throat (which is how tigers normally kill large prey)

[creature386]

Virtually no chance? Taking maximum vs maximum is really unfair, as the global population of saltwater crocodiles is a lot higher than that of bengal tigers. Taking average sizes won't be fair either (the reptile grows all it's life), so I would take similar sizes.

[Godzillasaurus]

Well then in that case, the tiger has a much larger chance in this fight. As evidenced by that one video, tigers are more than capable of killing crocodiles out of their element, but that is only if they manage to avoid injury altogether.

Maximum vs maximum- tiger stands no chance

Parity- it really depends on which animal gets the first bite/where the fight takes place (most likely in or near shallow water)

[guategojira]

Even at largest sizes, a 6 m crocodile will be much slower than a smaller one. Besides, the salt-water crocs have relative much larger tails in relation to its size (Manolis, 2002), so the impressive length is relative and not much reliable, even in comparisons between crocodile species.

There are records of tigresses (130-160 cm head-body length) killing 3-4 m crocodiles (c.200-260 cm snout-vent length) in Ranthambore NP. If these females can take a larger crocodile than themselves, it is truly plausible that a large male tiger (180-210 cm head-body length) will surely kill a 5-6 m croc (c.300-400 cm snout-vent length).

The point here is, where will they fight? If the fight is on the land, the tiger will kill the giant reptile (like I said, larger the reptile, slower in they movements), but if the fight is in the water, the crocodile will win the fight.

Take in count that you only need 4-5 persons to dominate a large crocodile of 4-5 m, and a tiger is much stronger than this number of persons. So, the tiger will surely dominate the giant reptile and bite it in the neck until the croc will be dead.

Ps. The estimated snout-vent for the crocodiles is based in a simple calculation that assume that the tail length of a crocodile is 1/3 of the total length. However, like I say before, the tail length of “salties” is longer in relation with its body, compared with other crocodiles, so the presented measurements are probably much smaller in reality. The head-body length of tigers was from measurements “between pegs”.

[Supercommunist]

It takes a lot more than four or five people to restrain a large crocodile.

[guategojira]

Was that a captive specimen, or a wild? I have saw two large wild specimens that were dominated more easily than this.

One case was a huge crocodile captured by Dr Brady Barr in Costa Rica (the chapter about the blind crocodiles). It was a giant of c.5 m length and weighed 490 kg. It was first exhausted by the boat and later they drag him to the beach. The huge beast barely resisted after that.

The other case was a 5.8 m Nile crocodile, also captured by Dr Brady Barr (don’t remember the chapter). The beast was dragged from a cave (it was not exhausted first) and five men sit on him to avoid the famous twist of the crocodiles. After that, the animal was more or less easy to manage.

So, yes, some crocodiles can present a good fight and will need more people to restrain it, but other (often large) specimens, simple don’t.

[Supercommunist]

Was that a captive specimen, or a wild? I have saw two large wild specimens that were dominated more easily than this.

Well it lives in an enclosure, and is a hybrid so likely the former. Since its virtually impossible for crocodilians to exercise when in captivity and thus are often unfit, I'd say that the video I posted is an especially great display of crocodilian strength.

One case was a huge crocodile captured by Dr Brady Barr in Costa Rica (the chapter about the blind crocodiles). It was a giant of c.5 m length and weighed 490 kg. It was first exhausted by the boat and later they drag him to the beach. The huge beast barely resisted after that.

Key statement there.

The other case was a 5.8 m Nile crocodile, also captured by Dr Brady Barr (don’t remember the chapter). The beast was dragged from a cave (it was not exhausted first) and five men sit on him to avoid the famous twist of the crocodiles. After that, the animal was more or less easy to manage.

I saw that video, do keep in mind they caught the animal in scorching heat, and was thus it was likely in no condition for a fight.

Steve Irwin had once attempted to restrain a large crocodile with himself and four others(with the aid of an imobile truck), but he broke a rib in the process. It also should be noted that the crocodile was caged prior and may have worn itself out trying to escape.

[guategojira]

It is fascinating to see such a beautiful animal in the wild. The crocodile is a real treasure and its size and form make him a perfect predator. I think that this crocodile measured 4, maybe 5 m long, am I correct?

It seems that indeed, 5 persons are able to manage a large crocodile, although not easily. It will be much safe to say, for the sake of accuracy, that we will need no less than 5 persons to keep a large crocodile. However, the crocodile will get tired first, caused by the accumulation of lactic acid, that’s for sure.

[Supercommunist]

I'd say its more accurate to say that it would take at least five professionals with the right tools, to restrain a crocodile. Anyway that point isn't too relevant to this discussion as it seems the catchers subdue the crocodiles through attrition rather than simple strength, and though tiger's have more endurance than crocodile's their stamina isn't very impressive either. I think a tiger could comfortably handle an average sized crocodile on land, but once they pass fifteen hundred pounds in weight the edge tips to the crocodile.

[guategojira]

Good point on the weight issue. On the Ranthambore cases, taking an average tigress at 130 kg and an average male mugger at 250 kg, we can see that tiger can kill crocodiles up to 2 times it sizes. This suggests that a male tiger of up to 260 kg could charge and kill a 520 kg crocodile, theoretically.

You put a safety limit at 1,500 lb (680 kg), which will be plausible. However I ask, how many “salties” had been reached this figure, actually recorded at least? A crocodile of 700-1000 kg will be as rare as a tiger of 300-320 kg. Although these figures had been recorded in literature, how many of them are actually real???

I think that we should stay with a more plausible range, which will be up to 260 kg for tigers and up to 600 kg for salt-water crocodiles. In this case, however, the tiger is not too far from its safety margin and would win the fight, on the land obviously. In the water, crocodile will win.

[blaze]

guategojira

...3-4 m crocodiles (c.200-260 cm snout-vent length) in Ranthambore NP. If these females can take a larger crocodile than themselves, it is truly plausible that a large male tiger (180-210 cm head-body length) will surely kill a 5-6 m croc (c.300-400 cm snout-vent length).

I have always liked the tables you've made of the sizes of lions and tigers and your assessment of the size of the ngandong tiger, good to have you here!

Now more on topic
I think you got something mixed up with those snout-vent lengths, 260cm svl corresponds to no less than 5m in total length (svl is around 50% of TL in crocodilians) and 400cm svl will correspond to something close to 9m in length using the proportions of lolong. BTW what is the full citation of Manolis 2002? I have suspected that salties have long tails since knowning the proportions of lolong in Britton et al. (2012) but is good having an specific confirmation from the literature. I only found two Manolis et al. (2002) coauthored with other croc experts but this papers were about the effects of pollution on crocodiles.

edit:
Lolong weighted 1075kg according to Britton et al. (2012), Erickson et al. (2012) has a 4.6m long 530kg saltie in their tables, any 5m saltie can probably approach or exceed 700kg.

[guategojira]

Hello Blaze, thanks for your words, it is good to know that other people appreciate my work.

About the SVL of crocodiles, I didn’t know that the tail constitute such a large portion of the crocodile body, however the tail forms a very important part of the body of all reptiles, at difference than cats. In these last ones, the tail is just an irrelevant measurement to get the body size (about 1/3 of the total length in the Panthera members) and should be used only as a secondary morphological data; sadly most of the records are from total length (nose to tip of tail) only and this don’t show the true size of the animals measured.

Returning to the theme, about the tail, here is the image of the book:


Now, about the weights, it is interesting that there are references for the weight of Lolong. As far I know, the heaviest captive salt-water crocodile in India is a gigantic male named “Jaws III” that measure 4.85 m in total length and weight 575 kg. This from a documentary of Romulus Whitaker and here is the image of the record in the Zoo, check this out:


Using some rogue Mathematics, the heaviest tiger reliably recorded is a male from Nepal that weighed 320 kg (Smythies, 1942; Schaller, 1967), which will produce a limit weight of 640 kg for the croc-kill; this would mean that the largest crocodile that a tiger could kill relatively safe would be between 500 - 600 kg (Av. 550 kg), in theory.

Obviously, larger specimens of up to 650-1,000 kg, like Lolong, would be too large for any modern (and prehistoric) cat and we will need a Polar-Kodiak bear to have some balanced match.

I will like to see the data of Britton et al. (2012) and Erickson et al. (2012), to add them in my database.

It seems, using this data, that a Bengal tiger can kill salt-water crocodiles up to around 550 kg (1,212 lb), but from there, the crocodile will have the advantage from its huge size.

Edit: The true record for a tiger is the Guinness-Smithsonian tiger that weighed 389 kg, however, this includes a huge amount of food and the cat apparently weighed “only” 324 kg empty belly (Wood, 1978); besides this is an exceptional case and for that reason I will not use it for any comparison.

[blaze]

Thanks for the citation!

Here is the table from Erickson et al. (2012)


And here I link to the paper, It's open access. Here's the link to the whole issue of Herpetological Review that contains Britton et al. (2012) I have not gotten around to separate it from the journal. It starts on page 541 (this issue starts at page 509).

[guategojira]

Thank you very much for the data, I will download it now and I will read it tomorrow, for now I most go to rest now, the work is waiting for me tomorrow and I am very tired.

Greetings and cheers.