Cotylorhynchus vs Toxodon

[Deleted]

vs

[Supercommunist]

Cotylorhynchus does genuinely seem to be those defenseless meat animals that TV shows like to depict. I suppose it could tail whip something but that would only work on much smaller animals.

[Deleted]

I agree. It’s rather difficult to think of a suitable opponent despite its large size.

[Infinity Blade]

Idk, it does look like a really thick tail if this recon by Fabio Alejandro-> is anything to go by. It is a bulky-ass animal too, so I suppose it could try shoulder/body slamming too (although, I only think that's a really serious thing at gigantic body sizes).



Although, I'm not sure how massive C. hancocki (the larger species) really is. Toxodon was the size of a bull hippo and, while not armed with any specialized weapons itself, had front teeth it could use to bite with (I remember seeing something about a Toxodon skull with marks matching the incisors of another Toxodon).

[Supercommunist]

I think there is a too much pushback in regards to the "defense prey item" sentiment in the zoology community. On paper wildebeest and kudu look like they can kill or seriously wound a predator with a kick or a horn thrust, but they are regularly dispatched by solo hyenas. IB for IB cotylorhynchus looks even worse off. It has no obvious weapons other than its unadorned tail. It's also got sprawling legs so I doubt it can kick effectively. Given that wolves are known to bring down moose by themselves, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a a single wolf/hyena could regularly bring down cotylorhynchus by themselves.

As you said, toxodon could probably bite something to death. Doubt tiny headed cotylorhynchus could hurt a similar sized foe with its tiny jaws.The toxodon could also potentially ram stuff.

[Infinity Blade]

Feb 21, 2023 3:10:27 GMT 5 Supercommunist said:

I think there is a too much pushback in regards to the "defense prey item" sentiment in the zoology community. On paper wildebeest and kudu look like they can kill or seriously wound a predator with a kick or a horn thrust, but they are regularly dispatched by solo hyenas. IB for IB cotylorhynchus looks even worse off. It has no obvious weapons other than its unadorned tail. It's also got sprawling legs so I doubt it can kick effectively. Given that wolves are known to bring down moose by themselves, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a a single wolf/hyena could regularly bring down cotylorhynchus by themselves.

As you said, toxodon could probably bite something to death. Doubt tiny headed cotylorhynchus could hurt a similar sized foe with its tiny jaws.The toxodon could also potentially ram stuff.

I mean, I agree, some people have definitely gone two feet when given one with regards to the whole "herbivores aren't defenseless" thing. But at least with regards to the ungulates you mention here, they're highly specialized for running away as their main defense, horns and hooves notwithstanding. I assume that most antelope are killed by solitary smaller predators when trying to flee without actually trying to kill the predator, so that's perfectly understandable.

I know Cotylorhynchus looks awkward as hell, but the fact that it was a highly bulky and definitely not very fast animal is already a prerequisite for it being better suited to physically fight something than a highly cursorial animal (there tends to be a trade-off between enhanced locomotory performance and fighting ability, according to a couple papers I've read). According to this source (which I literally just learned of), the forelimbs of caseids were very powerful, and coupled with the strong claws suggest a use in digging or tearing motions to forage (e.g. stripping vegetation with the clawed forelimbs). It's additionally been suggested that they could have also been used for defense against any predators it lived with and for fighting conspecifics (I think it's possible it could have been all of these things). And indeed, it looks like most specimens preserve broken and healed ribs, which might imply some run-ins with other animals (Olson, 1968).






This isn't to say I think it wins (I'm not even sure how large the largest species was), but maybe it wasn't quite as physically defenseless as it looks at first blush.

[Deleted]

Not sure about this one myself. The Toxodon is significantly larger and more formidable than Dimetrodon (the largest predator sympatric with Cotylorhynchus IIRC).

[Supercommunist]

But at least with regards to the ungulates you mention here, they're highly specialized for running away as their main defense, horns and hooves notwithstanding. I assume that most antelope are killed by solitary smaller predators when trying to flee without actually trying to kill the predator, so that's perfectly understandable.

Yeah that's true to a point. But the reason I singled those two animals out in particular is because studies suggest hyenas actually prefer to hunt large prey like wildebeest and topi alone. On the other hand, zebras that also primarily flee rather than fight are usually only challenged by packs.

Over 75% of 272 hunting attempts were made by lone hyenas, even when they hunted antelope three times their own body mass, such as wildebeest and topi. Of all prey that were commonly hunted, only zebra were usually hunted in groups. Approximately one-third of all hunting attempts resulted in prey capture. Although no significant sex differences were observed in juvenile or adult hunting rates, low-ranking adult females hunted at significantly higher hourly rates than did higher-ranking females. Hunting success was not influenced by the social rank of hunters, but hunting group size and hunter's age strongly influenced success. Young hyenas were poor hunters, and did not achieve adult competency levels until they were 5–6 years old.

. Kruuk (1972)found that hunts of gazelles and wildebeest were most frequently initiated by lone hyenas, whereas
zebra were hunted by groups containing an average of 11 hyenas.

e. For example, only juvenile hyenas ever attempted solo hunts to catch zebra, a strategy which inevitably failed

zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-7998.1997.tb02925.x

I know Cotylorhynchus looks awkward as hell, but the fact that it was a highly bulky and definitely not very fast animal is already a prerequisite for it being better suited to physically fight something than a highly cursorial animal (there tends to be a trade-off between enhanced locomotory performance and fighting ability, according to a couple papers I've read). According to this source (which I literally just learned of), the forelimbs of caseids were very powerful, and coupled with the strong claws suggest a use in digging or tearing motions to forage (e.g. stripping vegetation with the clawed forelimbs). I's additionally been suggested that they could have also been used for defense against any predators it lived with and for fighting conspecifics (I think it's possible it could have been all of these things). And indeed, it looks like most specimens preserve broken and healed ribs, which might imply some run-ins with other animals (Olson, 1968).

Sheer size could have been Cotylorhynchus' main defense. I am not very familiar with the Permian period but its possible that it didn't have to contend with very formidable predators.

In regards to the rib breakage, I definitely agree with the intraspecific conflict theory. There aren't many terrestrial predators that rely on blunt force to kill their prey. While it is neat to see that they are capable of seriously harming similar sized animals, that's still a pretty low bar. Going back to my wildebeest example, I am sure they also could theoretically cave in a hyena or a leopard's skull in with a kick. Due to their size and how fast they can run, there is no doubt wildebeest are strong animals. Yet, I have not heard of any accounts of them doing so. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any accounts of wildebeest killing one another, though I am sure they exist. It's pretty safe to say they are pretty bad fighters, even when compared to fellow herbivores.

Besides robustness and possibly durability, a cotylorhynchus doesn't appear to have any combat advantages over a similar sized antelope or cervid. Cotylorhynchus looks like a very slow animal, and it looks like it would have a much more difficult time landing a kick than a ungulate. A cotylorhynchus body plan looks pretty similar to a lizard's, and while I am aware monitor lizards and iguannas can inflict some nasty scratches, their forelimb rarely ever deliver lethal or decisive blows in interspecific conflict.

Basically, what I am getting at, there is always a bottom. While Cotylorhynchus might not have been literally defenseless, it was probably a pretty atrocious fighter for its size.

This comparison may be off, but a toxodon kind of reminds me of a tapir. Tapirs don't look like very formidable animals, and for their size they probably aren't, but they are still capable of biting off a person's arm.

www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1999/08/06/zoo-worker-adjusts-to-life-after-attack/62233307007/#:~:text=Zoo%20officials%20said%20the%20female,on%20her%2C%20causing%20internal%20injuries.

From what I understand, we do know that toxodon lived with some pretty formidable macropredators so there may been more evolutionary pressure for them to defend themselves than a cotylorhynchus.

[Infinity Blade]

Besides robustness and possibly durability, a cotylorhynchus doesn't appear to have any combat advantages over a similar sized antelope or cervid.

Well, what about bulk/robusticity? Again, certainly not built to flee from predators, but very powerfully built, and if it actually decided to engage in a close quarters scrap with tail, forelimbs, or even sheer bulk, I think those would serve it well a lot better than some ungulate's cursorial legs and light build.

Sheer size could have been Cotylorhynchus' main defense. I am not very familiar with the Permian period but its possible that it didn't have to contend with very formidable predators.

From what I understand, we do know that toxodon lived with some pretty formidable macropredators so there may been more evolutionary pressure for them to defend themselves than a cotylorhynchus.

C. hancocki is found in the San Angelo Formation, which also bears fossils of Dimetrodon angelensis. And the sphenacodontid certainly looks big enough to be a threat to Cotylorhynchus; if anything, I have a feeling size would have been more of a luxury enjoyed by Toxodon (size comparison found here->).



Although, this also makes me think Cotylorhynchus might not be heavy enough to contend with Toxodon, in which case this would be a size mismatch.

Besides robustness and possibly durability, a cotylorhynchus doesn't appear to have any combat advantages over a similar sized antelope or cervid. Cotylorhynchus looks like a very slow animal, and it looks like it would have a much more difficult time landing a kick than a ungulate. A cotylorhynchus body plan looks pretty similar to a lizard's, and while I am aware monitor lizards and iguannas can inflict some nasty scratches, their forelimb rarely ever deliver lethal or decisive blows in interspecific conflict.

I'm not saying Cotylorhynchus would kill a similar sized animal often with its claws or tail. But then again, I honestly am not sure Toxodon would either, even with teeth. If you want to use tapirs as an analogy, it's worth noting that tapirs are much bigger than humans, so I'm not surprised one could bite off a human's arm. I'll have to dig up that bite marked skull again, but I don't remember the bite marks being especially severe either.

[Deleted]

Feb 21, 2023 17:47:57 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Besides robustness and possibly durability, a cotylorhynchus doesn't appear to have any combat advantages over a similar sized antelope or cervid.

Well, what about bulk/robusticity? Again, certainly not built to flee from predators, but very powerfully built, and if it actually decided to engage in a close quarters scrap with tail, forelimbs, or even sheer bulk, I think those would serve it well a lot better than some ungulate's cursorial legs and light build.

Sheer size could have been Cotylorhynchus' main defense. I am not very familiar with the Permian period but its possible that it didn't have to contend with very formidable predators.

From what I understand, we do know that toxodon lived with some pretty formidable macropredators so there may been more evolutionary pressure for them to defend themselves than a cotylorhynchus.

C. hancocki is found in the San Angelo Formation, which also bears fossils of Dimetrodon angelensis. And the sphenacodontid certainly looks big enough to be a threat to Cotylorhynchus; if anything, I have a feeling size would have been more of a luxury enjoyed by Toxodon (size comparison found here->).



Although, this also makes me think Cotylorhynchus might not be heavy enough to contend with Toxodon, in which case this would be a size mismatch.

Besides robustness and possibly durability, a cotylorhynchus doesn't appear to have any combat advantages over a similar sized antelope or cervid. Cotylorhynchus looks like a very slow animal, and it looks like it would have a much more difficult time landing a kick than a ungulate. A cotylorhynchus body plan looks pretty similar to a lizard's, and while I am aware monitor lizards and iguannas can inflict some nasty scratches, their forelimb rarely ever deliver lethal or decisive blows in interspecific conflict.

I'm not saying Cotylorhynchus would kill a similar sized animal often with its claws or tail. But then again, I honestly am not sure Toxodon would either, even with teeth. If you want to use tapirs as an analogy, it's worth noting that tapirs are much bigger than humans, so I'm not surprised one could bite off a human's arm. I'll have to dig up that bite marked skull again, but I don't remember the bite marks being especially severe either.

Hey, any luck finding the bitten Toxodon skull? I don’t mean to bother you, but I’d be really, really interested in learning more about it.

[Infinity Blade]

Pretty sure this is the one. I haven't found my original tweet where I discuss them, but the skull definitely looks familiar (link->).