Komodos are not a good social analog for theropods

[Supercommunist]

People often argue that fossil evidence of multiple theropods feeding on a single carcass or travelling in large groups is not enough evidence that they were exhibiting true coordinated hunting behavior, and that they instead exhibited opportunistic komodo/crocodile mobbing behavior.

While I think komodo hunting behavior can shed light on how theropods killed their prey physically, I do not think they are a good behavioral analog because unlike theropods they are exothermic which means they require far less food and can have much higher population densities than endothermic predators.

Comparison of results from field studies demonstrates that Komodo dragons attain mean population biomass densities that are 5.75−231.82 times higher than that of apex mammalian predator species and their guilds in Africa, Asia, and North America.

esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecy.2970

Think about it, when is the last time you have a large group of decent-sized, solitary, terrestrial, warm blooded predators feeding on a single carcass that wasn't a whale, elephant, or other multi ton creature?

Granted I've seen groups of eagles feeding on a carcass but flyers have a much easier time spotting carcassess and their smaller size means a decent sized carcass can feed a lot of them.

There is this video titled "Have you ever seen so many jackals on one carcass?". I find this video enlightening because If you skip to the relevant part at 4:15 you can see four jackals feeding on a giraffe. On paper, four jackals on a single carcass doesn't sound that odd, but when I really think about it really isn't to common to see that many jackals at a single time.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZQtILVImT8

Animals like tiger, leopards, cougars, and jaguars have low population densities and aren't really keen on sharing it with other members of the same gender given how much prey is needed to sustain them. So I find it somewhat hard to believe that the five deinonychus found near a Tenontosaurus where all solitary animals that just converged on one carcass.

Our results indicated a low leopard density in the study area, with an estimated 1.53 leopards/100 km2 in summer and 1.62 leopards/100 km2 in winter.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0254507

A tenontosaurus might have enough meat to feed 5 leopard-sized deinonychus, but again, when is the last time you ever saw multiple cougars/leopards feeding on a elk/wildebeest carcass?

[Infinity Blade]

People have this idea that Tenontosaurus was this Iguanodon-sized giant, but an adult T. tilletti was really about 600 kg. It won't bring as much sustenance to a handful of Deinonychus that an actual multi-ton creature would. The majority of the Tenontosaurus associated with Deinonychus remains were also half-grown individuals, which would mean they'd have even less meat.

I actually don't think Deinonychus even needed a pack to hypothetically bring down a Tenontosaurus, but you make an interesting point.

[Supercommunist]

People have this idea that Tenontosaurus was this Iguanodon-sized giant, but an adult T. tilletti was really about 600 kg. It won't bring as much sustenance to a handful of Deinonychus that an actual multi-ton creature would. The majority of the Tenontosaurus associated with Deinonychus remains were also half-grown individuals, which would mean they'd have even less meat.

A sub adult deinoychus might not need much meat in a single sitting, but across its entire lifetime it will need far more food. According to studies small birds need 20 times more energy than similar sized lizards while mammals require 12 times as much energy. Komodos and monitors have higher metabolisms than most lizards but they would still need only a fraction of what a similar endotherm would require.

After accounting only for body mass effects, variation of more than 20 times between lowest and highest still exists. A simple way to demonstrate this is to calculate predicted FMRs for a 100-g mammal, bird, and reptile using the equations in Table 2. The results are 142 kJ/day for a 100-g mammal, 242 kJ/day for a 100-g bird, and 11.8 kJ/day for a 100-g reptile (see Table 2). The bird has to use 20 times more energy to live each day than does the lizard, and the mammal pays 12 times more than the lizard. Thus, there are large differences between these three taxonomic classes of animals.

theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/3752/animal-metabolism-thread


Predatory reptiles have much higher population densities than predatory birds or predatory mammals to the point that they can sustain other larger predators.

For instance, predators like snake eating eagles or jaguars will incorporate a substantial amount of predatory reptilian biomass in their diet. In contrast, as far as I know, small mammalian predator like weasels or foxes aren't a mainstay of any predators diet. There just doesn't seem to be enough of them around for that to be possible. So the notion that multiple primarily solitary animals just happened to feed on the same animal at the same time just seems super odd to me.

I actually don't think Deinonychus even needed a pack to hypothetically bring down a Tenontosaurus, but you make an interesting point.

I think a deinoychus might have been able to take down a lone tenotosaurus as well. The size difference between a cougar and elk is fairly similar to that of a deinoychus and a tenontosaurus and we have plenty of evidence cougars hunting elk:

www.fieldandstream.com/uploads/2019/01/18/UM2PGNG32TTP5NFGPJCSWJX7OQ.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&width=412

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Heck, even bobcats/lynxes have been known to kill much larger deer




I know Kaimere is a fantasy setting but maybe dromeosaurs had a fussion-fission sort of packy system like the author's cockatrice creation?



www.deviantart.com/illustratedmenagerie/art/Four-and-Twenty-Blackbirds-912814412

Studies have shown that animals like spotted hyenas actually hunt alone or in pairs more often than not but will band together when dealing with tough prey or rival predators like lions.

Do we have any fossil evidence of multiple solitary cats being found on the same feeding site that wasn't a predator trap?

[Supercommunist]

Bump.

Maybe caracara's are better analogs. They are warm blooded, have grasping feet, and are known to form mobs to kill stuff. Then again, they are a lot smaller

) Two Striated Caracaras (Phalcoboenus australis) dismantle a Flying Steamer Duck (Tachyeres patachonicus) killed by three individuals during
cooperative hunting; (8)

www.researchgate.net/profile/Ivan-Sazima/publication/275961572_The_jack-of-all-trades_raptor_versatile_foraging_and_wide_trophic_role_of_the_Southern_Caracara_Caracara_plancus_in_Brazil_with_comments_on_feeding_habits_of_the_Caracarini/links/554bb1bd0cf29f836c987493/The-jack-of-all-trades-raptor-versatile-foraging-and-wide-trophic-role-of-the-Southern-Caracara-Caracara-plancus-in-Brazil-with-comments-on-feeding-habits-of-the-Caracarini.pdf

Approximately 60
Bubulcus ibis were grouped around a cattle feeder,
when two C. plancus started chasing an egret
that took flight, pursued by the caracaras, which
again forced the quarry to the ground with their
bills, and killed the egret by pecking at it. More
detailed observations were impossible, although it
is believed that both caracaras consumed the prey.

casadafloresta.com.br/img/publicacoes/C0061_Godoy_et_al_2020.pdf