Clouded Leoprd vs Shri devi

[Shri devi]

Clouded Leopard - Neofelis nebulosa




Order: Carnivora

Family: Felidae

Length: 0.68 - 1.08 m (minus tail)

Mass: 11.5-23 kg

Period: Holocene

Diet: Southern pig-tailed macaque, Indian hog deer, Bengal slow loris, Asiatic brush-tailed porcupine, Malayan pangolin, Berdmore's ground squirrel, barking deer, pheasants, binturong

Additional notes:

-Stocky, powerfully built body

-Exceptionally agile

-Relatively the longest canines of any felids, up to 5cm in length which is similar to a Tiger in absolute terms

-Very wide gape (convergent with Macharidonts)


Shri devi




Suborder: Theropoda

Family: Dromaeosauridae

Length: 1.5-2.07 m

Mass: 14.1-19.7 kg (I'm using length and mass from V. mongoliensis since there are only two specimens of S. devi which do fall into the size range of the former, with the larger holotype having a comparable femur to the "fighting dinosaurs" Velociraptor)

Age and Location: 71-72 million years ago, Maastrichtian, Mongolia

Diet: Uncertain, possibly Bagaceratops, Breviceratops, young Udanoceratops, Natovenator, Tylocephale, Conchoraptor, lizards, multituberculates

Additional notes:

-Absurdly huge second pedal ungual/sickle claw, at 91.3 mm in the holotype which is 75% longer than the same ungual in a similarly sized V. mongoliensis (52 mm) or about as long as a H. moorei's hallux

-More cursorial limb proportions than V. mongoliensis (longer tibia and metatarsals), somewhat comparable to D. antirrhopus

-Relatively large skull, about 20 cm in ZPAL MgD-I/97, scaling isometrically to the holotype gives 25 cm, compared to the 23 cm skull of a similarly sized V. mongoliensis

-Shorter, deeper snout than other Velociraptorines with similar maxillary proportions to S. langstoni.

[Supercommunist]

Personally, I tend to favor formidable theropods over extant animals because the effects of their bites seem to be better able to inflict immediate damage and a shallow bite from an animal with serrated teeth can still cause bad blood loss. Cat's can obviously kill prey quickly but they seem to need to target a vital area like the throat or the skull to do so against large prey, whereas we have videos of a komodo almost instantly
incapacitating a much larger buffalo:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY5FMIrj27Q

At that site adolescents were generally
wounded rather than killed outright, whereas juveniles were
killed during the attacks, leading Rijksen (1978) to suggest
that in the hunting technique of the clouded leopard ‘the prey
is not pursued after the initial strike’.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10329-020-00842-1

There are a lot of videos of cats failing to kill smaller predators that lack grappling limbs







Dromeosaurs had claws they could use to defend themselves in a grapple, furthermore they had massive heads which favors them in a biting contest. Lastly, while their killing claws are overhyped in popular media the fossil of a velociraptor using its claw to shank a protoceratop's neck indicates that they are killing tools unlike the cats claws which are primarily gripping tools.

Lastly, theropods have a unidirectional breathing system which would be advantageous in a messy grappling contest.

[Infinity Blade]

Feb 10, 2024 3:39:58 GMT 5 Supercommunist said:

Personally, I tend to favor formidable theropods over extant animals because the effects of their bites seem to be better able to inflict immediate damage and a shallow bite from an animal with serrated teeth can still cause bad blood loss. Cat's can obviously kill prey quickly but they seem to need to target a vital area like the throat or the skull to do so against large prey, whereas we have videos of a komodo almost instantly
incapacitating a much larger buffalo:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY5FMIrj27Q

At that site adolescents were generally
wounded rather than killed outright, whereas juveniles were
killed during the attacks, leading Rijksen (1978) to suggest
that in the hunting technique of the clouded leopard ‘the prey
is not pursued after the initial strike’.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10329-020-00842-1

There are a lot of videos of cats failing to kill smaller predators that lack grappling limbs







Dromeosaurs had claws they could use to defend themselves in a grapple, furthermore they had massive heads which favors them in a biting contest. Lastly, while their killing claws are overhyped in popular media the fossil of a velociraptor using its claw to shank a protoceratop's neck indicates that they are killing tools unlike the cats claws which are primarily gripping tools.

Lastly, theropods have a unidirectional breathing system which would be advantageous in a messy grappling contest.

Jesus it looked like even that buffalo's face was wounded, in addition to its front leg.

But anyway, I pretty much agree with you. Hadn't even seen these additional videos of grappling vs biting predators.

[Shri devi]

Feb 10, 2024 3:39:58 GMT 5 Supercommunist said:

Personally, I tend to favor formidable theropods over extant animals because the effects of their bites seem to be better able to inflict immediate damage and a shallow bite from an animal with serrated teeth can still cause bad blood loss. Cat's can obviously kill prey quickly but they seem to need to target a vital area like the throat or the skull to do so against large prey, whereas we have videos of a komodo almost instantly
incapacitating a much larger buffalo:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY5FMIrj27Q

At that site adolescents were generally
wounded rather than killed outright, whereas juveniles were
killed during the attacks, leading Rijksen (1978) to suggest
that in the hunting technique of the clouded leopard ‘the prey
is not pursued after the initial strike’.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10329-020-00842-1

There are a lot of videos of cats failing to kill smaller predators that lack grappling limbs







Dromeosaurs had claws they could use to defend themselves in a grapple, furthermore they had massive heads which favors them in a biting contest. Lastly, while their killing claws are overhyped in popular media the fossil of a velociraptor using its claw to shank a protoceratop's neck indicates that they are killing tools unlike the cats claws which are primarily gripping tools.

Lastly, theropods have a unidirectional breathing system which would be advantageous in a messy grappling contest.

I agree that ziphodont theropods, and Eudromaeosaurs in particular, can inflict more immediate damage in more locations than most mammals can, especially felids. I also think that their bites would be more damaging than Komodo dragons at size parity for a number of reasons which is really saying something. And we don't know much about Clouded Leopards' predation but I've heard it suggested that their long canines came about as a specialization for killing prey quickly with a precise bite to the nape which is helpful when you're hunting on trees and can't risk a prolonged struggle that could lead to a fall (possibly also why they don't continue a hunt after a failed initial attack?). That said, I do think that in this case the Clouded Leopard, more than other pantherines when adjusted for size, could inflict serious damage with a more generalized bite, which it could and would do based on an account of an Orangutan being bitten in the butt. This is just because of the length of their teeth and the Dromaeosaur being relatively lithe. 

Clouded leopards also seem more stocky and heavily built than most other felids when adjusted for body size, including the three in those clips. Compared to Shri, it's most likely the more powerful grappler just due to greater limb mobility and musculature though Shri wouldn't have been poor in this regard either.

Agreed about the effectiveness of the Dromaeosaur jaws and claws though, both offensively and defensively. The jaws particularly would be quite useful if Shri is pinned compared to the cat's thanks to the long and flexible neck. I do also think that Shri lived up to the hype surrounding the sickle claw the most (relatively speaking) out of any known Dromaeosaurs. It wasn't a cutting blade and was probably still predominant a grappling tool but could inflict serious damage when grabbing or kicking. I just want to reiterate that the claw on the holotype was almost double the length of the claw on the fighting dinosaurs Velociraptor (which would be of similar size if femur length is anything to go by). Isn't claw length correlated with prey size in modern raptors? I think African Crowned Eagles has larger talons and take larger prey than the heavier Martial Eagles. Shri's sickle claw has also been described as "very narrow" in cross section but idk if this is relative to other Dromaeosaurs or in general.

Unidirectional airflow aside, I wonder what would be more advantageous in a rough and tumble fight between diaphragmic and ribs-driven breathing. Which would be easier to knock the air out of so to speak?

Anyways, I favor Shri devi 55/45, at least at mass parity.