Kaprosuchus saharicus vs Dimetrodon grandis

[Runic]

Dec 24, 2013 17:54:37 GMT 5 @jagswag said:

Mismatch, Kaprosuchus was only the size of an American Alligator

So was Dimetrodon. You seem to forget American Alligator can reach 880lbs.

[blaze]

But 3.3m long American alligators can't, based on the reconstructions of D. grandis I've seen, big individuals were over 3.5m long with tails less than 45% of total length, they probably reached 4m in total length if they had a tail closer to 50% total length like American alligators. Just look at Spinodontosaurus size chart.

Both were American alligator sized yes, but Kaprosuchus was the size of an small male or large female while D. grandis was the size of a large male, could there be bigger specimens of Kaprosuchus? maybe, but we haven't found them yet.

[creature386]

There definitely were larger ones, crocodiles grow all their life, so it's extremely unlikely to find a full grown specimen in such a low sample. Of course we have to take the known specimens for match ups though.

[blaze]

I have a paper that says that determined growth has been proven for several crocodilian taxa but I can't remember the name or subject of the paper, but is definitely proven for the American alligator (Woodward et al. 1995; Chabreck and Joanen, 1979). Was Kaprosuchus one of those crocodilians that at 40-50 years old reached 6m? 4m? 3.5m? we do not know, sadly.

[creature386]

Well, there are still many crocodilian, which can attain a length of 6 m (nile crocodiles, saltwater crocodiles), but average only 3 m. Does anyone know about the differences between a maximum and an average sized alligator. For the average size of the gator, I would like to see some scientific data, and no sources, which exaggerate it's average size like they so with nile and saltwater crocodiles, or other large reptiles (like komodo dragons).

[blaze]

But what does that average constitute? is the only requirement being sexually mature? in my opinion that's a poor representation of what the "normal" adult is in taxa that reach sexual maturity much earlier and much smaller than skeletal maturity.

Regarding American alligator, Chabreck and Joanen (1979), which I linked in my previous post and is free to read on JSTOR if you have a free account, has info on 218 alligators captured and measured in Louisiana, since I've read that Alligators reach sexual maturity when they are at least 1.5m long I'll only use individuals bigger than that and consider them adults. There are 86 adults, 70(81%) were between 1.5 and 3m in length, only 16 (19%) were longer than 3m. Going from this sample the average American alligator is only around 2-2.5m in length.

But they are still growing at that size, Chabreck and Joanen (1979) finds that both male and females grow at the same rate until they are 1m long, from there on female growth is only half that of the male, at 10 years of age, males are 2.6m long while females are 2.1m long and their growth slows down even more to the point that they only reach about 2.6m when they are 20 years old, males, on the other hand, keep actively growing during that time and reach 3.5m when they are 20 years old, here their growth slows down and by the time they reach 30 years old they only get to 3.9m and it takes another decade to reach 4m in length. This is on average for this population and the exact length at which asymptotic size is reached will of course vary between populations and individuals but they do reach a point in which they practically stop growing, Woodward et al. (1995) mentions growth studies with a population from South Carolina that found growth practically none-existent in males over 3.7m in length and females over 2.6m in length.

An average adult alligator is not a full grown alligator, the same goes for other crocodilians, I think.

[creature386]

Of course a sexually mature specimen is a bad representative, but how do we know that the growth of the known Karposuchus specimen already reached it's peak? The average should be something we can compare to Karposuchus.

[Godzillasaurus]

Dec 23, 2013 15:04:06 GMT 5 spinodontosaurus said:

I don't think it is Kaprosuchus that will be doing the face munching if I'm honest, not when Dimetrodon has a head and teeth like those.

I don't think soÂ… Kaprosuchus' skull was very well adapted for crushing, as evidenced by its very wide shape and robust structure alike (also note that its elongated dentition was very thick and heavily-built as well, being perfectly-shaped and designed for puncturing deeply and yet remaining quite strong and resistant as well). It would have no problem dealing any sort of bone-related damage here, considering the fact that it seems very well adapted to do so; it was equipped with very robust/powerful jaws and deep penetrating dentition alike.

[theropod]

I think what he meant was that the skull of Dimetrodon is even more robust.

[Godzillasaurus]

I am unsure of how robust dimetrodon's skull was, however. Kaprosuchus in general seems very well adapted for creating deep and crushing skeletal damage.

[Infinity Blade]

And Dimetrodon's skull isn't by the looks of it?

[spinodontosaurus]

Sure, Kaprosuchus would have had a strong bite. But unless you can provide a very good reason why, there is no reason to think it would be significantly (if at all) stronger or better at crushing than a modern alligator/crocodile of comparable size would be.

Dimetrodon's skull is even bigger. Not necessarily stronger (I don't know which would be stronger), but it clearly has a strong bite too. And it's teeth are huge.

I don't see how Kaprosuchus has any real advantage in the biting department. And when the whole animal itself is seemingly smaller, I think Dimetrodon is the winner here.

[Godzillasaurus]

Quote: Sure, Kaprosuchus would have had a strong bite. But unless you can provide a very good reason why, there is no reason to think it would be significantly (if at all) stronger or better at crushing than a modern alligator/crocodile of comparable size would be.

What its snout morphology implies is very strong emphasis on exertion of impressive force; its snout was very heavily-constructed and it was actually very wide (not as much in relation to snout length as in the American alligator, however). I do not know how to create comparisons of two animals in the ways that you guys can, but I can tell you that its snout morphology indicates heavily a strong ability to exert massive downward force.



Quote: I don't see how Kaprosuchus has any real advantage in the biting department. And when the whole animal itself is seemingly smaller, I think Dimetrodon is the winner here.

Let's ignore size for a moment. With such a heavily-constructed skull (again, a strong indicator of crushing capabilities) and such enlarged and yet robust dentition (think of large and elongate spikes); the sheer biting force exerted by it on an animal's skull, neck, or limb would be very damaging, specifically in the realm of skeletal damage. The specialization of its teeth to pierce deeply is deadly enough, but that ability in conjunction with such force would be cataclysmic for a prey animal's skeletal structure. Unlike modern broad-snouted crocodilians, kaprosuchus most definitely killed with very powerful biting as opposed to gripping and tearing

[Carcharodon]

Jan 6, 2014 8:02:03 GMT 5 Godzillasaurus said:

What its snout morphology implies is very strong emphasis on exertion of impressive force; its snout was very heavily-constructed and it was actually very wide (not as much in relation to snout length as in the American alligator, however). I do not know how to create comparisons of two animals in the ways that you guys can, but I can tell you that its snout morphology indicates heavily a strong ability to exert massive downward force.

Comparing kaprosuchus's skull to those of an american alligator and a saltwater croc;



Although i do think kaprosuchus may be capable of causing larger wounds due to its big canines, i don't see how it would have a much stronger bite (if at all, really) than a similar sized alligator or crocodile.

[Godzillasaurus]

You would be surprised at how robust its snout really is:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Kaprosuchus_3.jpg/687px-Kaprosuchus_3.jpg