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Post by Runic on Jan 11, 2014 2:57:18 GMT 5
It takes less energy to counter attack then to attack and escape before you get bitten. Unless lio is vastly more agile then it isn't going to be biting the crocodile without getting bit itself. The same logic absolutely applies to Deinosuchus too, but in the face of a fully aquatic adversary that possessed four flippers that are believed to be specifically utilised in increased manoeuvrability, it isn't hard to see which combatant will have the easiest time landing a bite, and avoiding a counter bite. Never said anything against it being used for lio, what I stated is that even though the lio is more adapted for the open ocean that it doesn't mean anything, otherwise saltwater crocodile wouldn't be catching and killing sharks in the open ocean despite inferior mobility. If lio wants to bite deino it's gonna get bitten right back. |
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Post by spinodontosaurus on Jan 12, 2014 3:55:25 GMT 5
The same logic absolutely applies to Deinosuchus too, but in the face of a fully aquatic adversary that possessed four flippers that are believed to be specifically utilised in increased manoeuvrability, it isn't hard to see which combatant will have the easiest time landing a bite, and avoiding a counter bite. Never said anything against it being used for lio, what I stated is that even though the lio is more adapted for the open ocean that it doesn't mean anything, otherwise saltwater crocodile wouldn't be catching and killing sharks in the open ocean despite inferior mobility. If lio wants to bite deino it's gonna get bitten right back. Try considering scenarios where only one of the two combatants is in a position to bite. Given that Liopleurodon was the more mobile of the two (four flippers, plus possibly smaller mass), and would have had the larger (or at least longer) jaw, then clearly Liopleurodon is the one most likely to get itself in a position to attack without being attacked back.
Even in scenarios where both could attack each other, if pliosaurids truly were better built for biting than crocodilians, then Liopleurodon will hold the advantage here too.
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Post by Runic on Jan 12, 2014 4:03:44 GMT 5
Never said anything against it being used for lio, what I stated is that even though the lio is more adapted for the open ocean that it doesn't mean anything, otherwise saltwater crocodile wouldn't be catching and killing sharks in the open ocean despite inferior mobility. If lio wants to bite deino it's gonna get bitten right back. Try considering scenarios where only one of the two combatants is in a position to bite. Given that Liopleurodon was the more mobile of the two (four flippers, plus possibly smaller mass), and would have had the larger (or at least longer) jaw, then clearly Liopleurodon is the one most likely to get itself in a position to attack without being attacked back.
Even in scenarios where both could attack each other, if pliosaurids truly were better built for biting than crocodilians, then Liopleurodon will hold the advantage here too.
As I said before, being less adapted to water didn't stop saltwater crocodile from catching and killing smaller more mobile sharks in the open ocean now does it? From your logic, bull sharks should be biting chunks out of crocodile without much to fear due to their more open ocean adapted body yet.... which always wounds up as lunch whether it be in a freshwater river or the big blue ocean? And frankly, when you have a jaw that bites significantly harder than a T.rex, it doesn't matter if lio had a better jaw for crushing, one full on bite from deinosuchus would still mortally wound it abd its softer skin. If lio tries to bite deino, it's gonna get bitten first by the deino once it intercepts the lunge. These are multi tonne predators, the lio isn't going to posses dolphin agility. And when sharks and orcas fight each other ain't much dodging goes on. Interpret that last part as you see fit |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jan 12, 2014 8:47:42 GMT 5
You said smaller sharks. In that case, I can understand how saltwater crocodiles are able to kill them, despite not being as well adapted to ocean life (cause, well, they're larger). A large Liopleurodon (I think a more average one would admittedly lose, so I guess we use a rather large one to make it less closer) is near the weight of Deinosuchus rugosus.
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Post by Runic on Jan 12, 2014 9:09:42 GMT 5
You said smaller sharks. In that case, I can understand how saltwater crocodiles are able to kill them, despite not being as well adapted to ocean life (cause, well, they're larger). A large Liopleurodon (I think a more average one would admittedly lose, so I guess we use a rather large one to make it less closer) is near the weight of Deinosuchus rugosus. You're completely missing the point, crocodile are not regarded as fast animals whether they are big or small, while bull shark are noted to be fast. Yet, despite the obvious mobility advantage the shark has over the crocodile, that doesn't stop the latter from catching and eating the former on multiple occasions. Size has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario and if anything it should have hindered the crocodile from chasing and catching the shark not helped it. A lios mobility advantage isn't going to stop deinosuchus from biting it. |
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jan 12, 2014 9:50:44 GMT 5
Regarding agility: Animal ho use hydrofoil paddles like turtles ,penguins or giant pliosaurs outperform animals with thuniform swimming style: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjb27EED1kIn a fight whre the decisive advantage is placing an abominable feeding aparatus, turning ability and speed are decisive advantages. I think it is unlikely that any animal could take on a pliosaur at equal size (other than physeteroids, full on collisions are proably impossible to counter on such scales). While species like Simolesthes where probably more terrifying, I dont think Liopleurodon could be matched by anything else. |
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Post by Runic on Jan 12, 2014 10:09:18 GMT 5
Regarding agility: Animal ho use hydrofoil paddles like turtles ,penguins or giant pliosaurs outperform animals with thuniform swimming style: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjb27EED1kIn a fight whre the decisive advantage is placing an abominable feeding aparatus, turning ability and speed are decisive advantages. I think it is unlikely that any animal could take on a pliosaur at equal size (other than physeteroids, full on collisions are proably impossible to counter on such scales). While species like Simolesthes where probably more terrifying, I dont think Liopleurodon could be matched by anything else. Hmm the tiger shark didn't seem all that interested in actually attacking the turtle but instead looked as if it was using the bump and test move sharks regularly do seeing as how not much if any aggressive intent was shown in the shark. Even then i doubt the turtle actually repelled the shark from a real attack as sharks dont feel pain. Anyway the scenario I was talking about referenced to if the lio was the attacker not the gator. |
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jan 12, 2014 15:14:04 GMT 5
Regarding agility: Animal ho use hydrofoil paddles like turtles ,penguins or giant pliosaurs outperform animals with thuniform swimming style: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjb27EED1kIn a fight whre the decisive advantage is placing an abominable feeding aparatus, turning ability and speed are decisive advantages. I think it is unlikely that any animal could take on a pliosaur at equal size (other than physeteroids, full on collisions are proably impossible to counter on such scales). While species like Simolesthes where probably more terrifying, I dont think Liopleurodon could be matched by anything else. Hmm the tiger shark didn't seem all that interested in actually attacking the turtle but instead looked as if it was using the bump and test move sharks regularly do seeing as how not much if any aggressive intent was shown in the shark. Even then i doubt the turtle actually repelled the shark from a real attack as sharks dont feel pain. Anyway the scenario I was talking about referenced to if the lio was the attacker not the gator. Sharks dont feel pain? Thx for the shark psychoanalysis. It is always helpful /S. Note that the pliosaur has larger flippers than the turle and likely comparatively better acceleration. Victory chances for a croc of equal size are low. |
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Post by Grey on Jan 12, 2014 15:49:23 GMT 5
Sharks actually do feel pain but don't have the same sensibility to pain than human. Their receptors are just way fewer.
I'm skeptical at the claim that nothing could take a pliosaur at equal size. They may be more maneuverable than a thunniform swimmer, there are chances the later are way faster. Great white sharks have a relatively high rate of success on much smaller and more agile seals and can even chase them after a failed ambush. And I don't see why physeteroids are all so mighty in that sense, they are not the only thunniforms potent at colliding a foe (and I don't see Zygophyseter that potent at this).
Anyway, my wonder is how really heavy and massive is Liopleurodon compared to Deinosuchus and could really its jaws perform massive damages despite of the osteoderms.
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Post by creature386 on Jan 12, 2014 15:58:59 GMT 5
I thought sharks have extremely fine senses? Is the sense of touch an exception?
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Post by Grey on Jan 12, 2014 16:07:35 GMT 5
Their sense of touch is itself located in their teeth. That's not related to pain.
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jan 12, 2014 16:10:00 GMT 5
Sharks actually do feel pain but don't have the same sensibility to pain than human. Their receptors are just way fewer. I'm skeptical at the claim that nothing could take a pliosaur at equal size. They may be more maneuverable than a thunniform swimmer, there are chances the later are way faster. Great white sharks have a relatively high rate of success on much smaller and more agile seals and can even chase them after a failed ambush. And I don't see why physeteroids are all so mighty in that sense, they are not the only thunniforms potent at colliding a foe (and I don't see Zygophyseter that potent at this). Anyway, my wonder is how really heavy and massive is Liopleurodon compared to Deinosuchus and could really its jaws perform massive damages despite of the osteoderms. Top speed in fghts are irrelevant. If sharks achieve higher top speeds, that is nice for them, but when fighting I think angular acceleration seals the deal. Great whit success immediately declines after failed ambush. Sometimes they manage, but superior acceleration is an advantage that if both are aware, is hard to overcome. Physeteroids are to my knowledge the only anmals that have transformed a large percentage of their biomass into a biological warhammer. Hard to beat that in terms of commitment. The reasons others would not be as good in using collisions is that without appropriate damping, you are toast as well as your enemy. So ramming with full speed head on at the scale of physeteroids is likely to not only injure enemy, but yourself as well. |
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Post by Grey on Jan 12, 2014 16:26:15 GMT 5
As I don't know a live example of a fight between a thunniform and turtle-like swimmer I'm still skeptical.
The example of a non aggressive juvenile Galeocerdo is not relevant. And with the superior flexibility of sharks skeleton complicate this a bit.
Not all physeteroids have the same warhammer than Physeter. The one in Livyatan is comparatively way smaller. Can we argue that a battling ram is a more powerful weaponry than a devastating bite ? I don't think. Physeteroids have powerful jaws and ramming capabilities, white sharks are known to inflict potent damages while ramming and have devastating bites. I argue that these combinations of weaponry are equivalent, not one being superior to the other.
Now that's off topic.
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Post by theropod on Jan 12, 2014 16:55:05 GMT 5
ThatÂ’s one cool video with the turtle and the shark. I didnÂ’t know those guys could be so agressive.
Quite impressive how it manages to face or outmaneuver and bite the predator time and again, considering itÂ’s not actually known for its explosiveness...
Mount a LiopleurodonÂ’s jaws on that and youÂ’ve got yourself a seriously scary creature ("Lioturtlodon necans"?).
As regards Deinosuchus rugosus, wasnÂ’t it found it averaged at just ~8m? Also, regarding the supposedly irrelevant jaw adaptions, I think thatÂ’s comparable to the Hyaena vs Wolf story. Just that both have very strong bites does not mean their bites were similarly adept at the same things. A strong bite can serve mostly for gripping, or it can serve mostly for actually crushing or puncturing. How specialized they are for these things respectively depends on tooth and jaw morphology.
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Post by creature386 on Jan 12, 2014 17:19:00 GMT 5
I don't know if I should consider this impressive or not. In the one hand, it looks like I underestimated turtles a bit, in the other hand, outmaneuvering an a bit sleepy shark is not that impressive.
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