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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 14, 2014 2:19:30 GMT 5
Cave Bear-Ursus spelaeus
The cave bear (Ursus spelaeus) was a species of bear that lived in Europe during the Pleistocene and became extinct at the beginning of the Last Glacial Maximum, about 27,500 years ago. Cave bears were comparable in size to the largest modern-day bears. The average weight for males was 400 to 500 kilograms (880 to 1,100 lb), while females weighed 225 to 250 kg (495 to 550 lb).[13] Of cave bear skeletons in museums, 90% are male due to a misconception that the female skeletons were merely "dwarfs". Cave bears grew larger during glaciations and smaller during interglacials, probably to adjust heat loss rate.[14] Cave bears of the last Ice Age lacked the usual two or three premolars present in other bears; to compensate, the last molar is very elongated, with supplementary cusps.[15] The humerus of the cave bear was similar in size to that of the polar bear, as were the femora of females. The femora of male cave bears, however, bore more similarities in size to those of kodiak bears.[13]  Aurochs-Bos primigeniusThe aurochs (/???r?ks/ or /?a?r?ks/; pl. aurochs, or rarely aurochsen, aurochses), also urus, ure (Bos primigenius), the ancestor of domestic cattle, is an extinct type of large wild cattle that inhabited Europe, Asia and North Africa; they survived in Europe until the last recorded aurochs died in the Jaktorów Forest, Poland in 1627. During the Neolithic Revolution, which occurred during the early Holocene, there were at least two aurochs domestication events: one related to the Indian subspecies, leading to zebu cattle; the other one related to the Eurasian subspecies, leading to taurine cattle. Other species of wild bovines were also domesticated, namely the wild water buffalo, gaur, and banteng. In modern cattle, numerous breeds share characteristics of the aurochs, such as a dark colour in the bulls, with a light eel stripe along the back with the cows being lighter, or a typical aurochs-like horn shape. The aurochs was one of the largest herbivores in postglacial Europe, comparable to the wisent, the European bison. The size of an aurochs appears to have varied by region: in Europe, northern populations were bigger on average than those from the south. For example, during the Holocene, aurochs from Denmark and Germany had an average height at the shoulders of 155–180 cm (61–71 in) in bulls and 135–155 cm (53–61 in) in cows, while aurochs populations in Hungary had bulls reaching 155–160 cm (61–63 in).[17] The body mass of aurochs appeared to have showed some variability. Some individuals were comparable in weight to the wisent and the banteng, reaching around 700 kg (1,500 lb), whereas those from the late-middle Pleistocene are estimated to have weighed up to 1,500 kg (3,300 lb), as much as the largest gaur (the largest extant bovid).[8][18] The sexual dimorphism between bull and cow was strongly expressed, with the cows being significantly shorter than bulls on average. 
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Post by Runic on Feb 14, 2014 8:52:44 GMT 5
God damn that was a big bovid!
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 14, 2014 18:26:55 GMT 5
And to think we eat its descendants now.....
I know people are going to disagree with me, but I know that bears control their opponent's heads in order to win. I don't see that as an advantage, rather it's downfall. If it does that, it will play right into the aurochs' hands and will get gored. I have doubts on the cave bear being strong enough to control the head of a charging aurochs. And before you use the similar sized carnivore vs. herbivore excuse, this bear was more herbivorous than any other bear (I think by a significant degree too). It was almost a complete herbivore. So there wouldn't really be a sort of predator-prey relationship to this fight. The aurochs wins IMO.
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Post by Vodmeister on Feb 16, 2014 13:04:20 GMT 5
Bears are not specialized like felines to attack large bovines like this. The Cave Bear will likely attempt to control the Aurochs' head, and that would be a fatal mistake.
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Post by Runic on Feb 16, 2014 13:15:01 GMT 5
And to think we eat its descendants now..... I know people are going to disagree with me, but I know that bears control their opponent's heads in order to win. I don't see that as an advantage, rather it's downfall. If it does that, it will play right into the aurochs' hands and will get gored. I have doubts on the cave bear being strong enough to control the head of a charging aurochs. And before you use the similar sized carnivore vs. herbivore excuse, this bear was more herbivorous than any other bear (I think by a significant degree too). It was almost a complete herbivore. So there wouldn't really be a sort of predator-prey relationship to this fight. The aurochs wins IMO. Was that predator vs herbivore thing aimed at me? I feel that it was subtly aimed at me. Regardless most bears are ominovrous to herbivorous anyway save for the polar bear. VodmeisterHead controlling works fine for the bears that do it to elk and musk ox and even boar. A bull elk is a monster as well. Though to a lesser extent. |
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Post by creature386 on Feb 16, 2014 13:20:34 GMT 5
I don't believe this was only aimed at you (although you started bringing it into debates), some people like me and Carcharodon also use that argument sometimes.
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Post by Runic on Feb 16, 2014 13:23:11 GMT 5
I don't believe this was only aimed at you (although you started bringing it into debates), some people like me and Carcharodon also use that argument sometimes. Well he said "before you" in his post and I was the only one that commented before him (regardless it makes his statement redundant nonetheless because there's evidence of predatory/carnivorous behavior in the bear so technically it is a predator/carnivore/omnivore not a borderline herbivore). But I'm not one to judge. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Feb 16, 2014 13:28:25 GMT 5
And to think we eat its descendants now..... I know people are going to disagree with me, but I know that bears control their opponent's heads in order to win. I don't see that as an advantage, rather it's downfall. If it does that, it will play right into the aurochs' hands and will get gored. I have doubts on the cave bear being strong enough to control the head of a charging aurochs. And before you use the similar sized carnivore vs. herbivore excuse, this bear was more herbivorous than any other bear (I think by a significant degree too). It was almost a complete herbivore. So there wouldn't really be a sort of predator-prey relationship to this fight. The aurochs wins IMO. Was that predator vs herbivore thing aimed at me? I feel that it was subtly aimed at me. Regardless most bears are borderline herbivorious anyway save for the polar bear. VodmeisterHead controlling works fine for the bears that do it to elk and musk ox and even boar. A bull elk is a monster as well. Though to a lesser extent. Elk have large but blund antlers that can be quite easy to control for a dexterous animal like a Bear. A bovine like Aurochs is a whole other ball game, it's horns are short, sharp, and pointed more effiecently. Likewise, Elk and Grizzly Bear are give or take the same size. An Aurochs is well over double the size of the Cave Bear. Head control is suicidal for any 1,200 pound Bear to attempt to a 3,300 pound Bovine. The jump and dodge strategy which felines use is much better, but Bears can't do this. That is the Cave Bears biggest downfall in this face-off. In some ways, Bovines are the achilles heel of Bears. |
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Post by Runic on Feb 16, 2014 13:34:04 GMT 5
Was that predator vs herbivore thing aimed at me? I feel that it was subtly aimed at me. Regardless most bears are borderline herbivorious anyway save for the polar bear. VodmeisterHead controlling works fine for the bears that do it to elk and musk ox and even boar. A bull elk is a monster as well. Though to a lesser extent. Elk have large but blund antlers that can be quite easy to control for a dexterous animal like a Bear. A bovine like Aurochs is a whole other ball game, it's horns are short, sharp, and pointed more effiecently. Likewise, Elk and Grizzly Bear are give or take the same size. An Aurochs is well over double the size of the Cave Bear. Head control is suicidal for any 1,200 pound Bear to attempt to a 3,300 pound Bovine. The jump and dodge strategy which felines use is much better, but Bears can't do this. That is the Cave Bears biggest downfall in this face-off. In some ways, Bovines are the achilles heel of Bears. All you must do is put your hands on the inside of the horns to avoid exposing your chest damage. They do it to boar which are considered the hell spawn of prey even more so than bovids. And to be fair the bear won't need to outright overpower the bovid as simply leaning all your weight on a small area on the bovids head would make it top heavy and fall over for a mauling unless the bovid kept backing up. And it stated the largest bulls reached 3000+lbs not the average. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 16, 2014 18:40:44 GMT 5
@runic I said almost a complete herbivore, not a borderline one. And no, that was not necessarily directed completely towards you, more towards anyone who oftenly likes to use that argument (I'll be honest, I myself feel inclined to use it too, but I merely suggested to those who might think this is predator/herbivore, it might not be 100% true). Vodmeister Didn't you used to strongly back a polar bear over a Spanish fighting bull? Have you changed your opinion on the matter? |
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Post by Vodmeister on Feb 16, 2014 21:26:14 GMT 5
Vodmeister Didn't you used to strongly back a polar bear over a Spanish fighting bull? Have you changed your opinion on the matter? A Spanish fighting Bull and Polar Bear are essentially equal in size, or very close to. An Aurochs is well over double the weight of a Cave Bear. There is no comparison IMO. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Feb 16, 2014 21:31:29 GMT 5
Elk have large but blund antlers that can be quite easy to control for a dexterous animal like a Bear. A bovine like Aurochs is a whole other ball game, it's horns are short, sharp, and pointed more effiecently. Likewise, Elk and Grizzly Bear are give or take the same size. An Aurochs is well over double the size of the Cave Bear. Head control is suicidal for any 1,200 pound Bear to attempt to a 3,300 pound Bovine. The jump and dodge strategy which felines use is much better, but Bears can't do this. That is the Cave Bears biggest downfall in this face-off. In some ways, Bovines are the achilles heel of Bears. All you must do is put your hands on the inside of the horns to avoid exposing your chest damage. They do it to boar which are considered the hell spawn of prey even more so than bovids. And to be fair the bear won't need to outright overpower the bovid as simply leaning all your weight on a small area on the bovids head would make it top heavy and fall over for a mauling unless the bovid kept backing up. And it stated the largest bulls reached 3000+lbs not the average. 1. The Bear has too much girth to put his entire body in between the two horns of the Aurochs. 2. You compare a 400 pound Boar to a 3,000 pound Bovine? Really? And Cave Bear ain't even much superior to Brown Bear. 3. The Bear would need to stand bipedal to grab the head of the Bovine, but there's a good chance that Aurochs will have build enough momentum in its charge to knock the upright Bear backwards. 4. Bovines have a lot of neck muscles. It would not surprise me if a 3,300 pound Aurochs could lift a 1,200 pound Cave Bear off its feet and tackle it, such is the power of these animals. 5. 1,200 pounds is also upper limit for a Cave Bear. Bears are not felines. Perhaps if the Cave Bear could leap and jump around like a Cougar, it might stand a chance. Nevertheless, the head-on strategy will be suicidal here. |
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Post by Runic on Feb 16, 2014 21:39:28 GMT 5
All you must do is put your hands on the inside of the horns to avoid exposing your chest damage. They do it to boar which are considered the hell spawn of prey even more so than bovids. And to be fair the bear won't need to outright overpower the bovid as simply leaning all your weight on a small area on the bovids head would make it top heavy and fall over for a mauling unless the bovid kept backing up. And it stated the largest bulls reached 3000+lbs not the average. 1. The Bear has too much girth to put his entire body in between the two horns of the Aurochs. 2. You compare a 400 pound Boar to a 3,000 pound Bovine? Really? And Cave Bear ain't even much superior to Brown Bear. 3. The Bear would need to stand bipedal to grab the head of the Bovine, but there's a good chance that Aurochs will have build enough momentum in its charge to knock the upright Bear backwards. 4. Bovines have a lot of neck muscles. It would not surprise me if a 3,300 pound Aurochs could lift a 1,200 pound Cave Bear off its feet and tackle it, such is the power of these animals. 5. 1,200 pounds is also upper limit for a Cave Bear. Bears are not felines. Perhaps if the Cave Bear could leap and jump around like a Cougar, it might stand a chance. Nevertheless, the head-on strategy will be suicidal here. 1. I said hands or arms. 2. It stated "weigh up to 3000lbs" <- inferring they average less than that. And yes boar are hell spawn with similarly lethal weapons and a more bulky body. The cave/brown bear part is an opinion on your part 3. Obviously 4. You can be as strong as you want but if you're top heavy you're still gonna hit the ground. Bears are macropredatory just like cats. 5.weight for males was 400 to 500 kilograms (880 to 1,100 lb). You're telling me the upper weight was only 100lbs extra? If you say so. And lastly why do you keep talking about cats? Pretty sure I already knew they hunt differently. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Feb 16, 2014 21:45:11 GMT 5
1. The Bear has too much girth to put his entire body in between the two horns of the Aurochs. 2. You compare a 400 pound Boar to a 3,000 pound Bovine? Really? And Cave Bear ain't even much superior to Brown Bear. 3. The Bear would need to stand bipedal to grab the head of the Bovine, but there's a good chance that Aurochs will have build enough momentum in its charge to knock the upright Bear backwards. 4. Bovines have a lot of neck muscles. It would not surprise me if a 3,300 pound Aurochs could lift a 1,200 pound Cave Bear off its feet and tackle it, such is the power of these animals. 5. 1,200 pounds is also upper limit for a Cave Bear. Bears are not felines. Perhaps if the Cave Bear could leap and jump around like a Cougar, it might stand a chance. Nevertheless, the head-on strategy will be suicidal here. 1. I said hands or arms. 2. It stated "weigh up to 3000lbs" <- inferring they average less than that. And yes boar are hell spawn with similarly lethal weapons and a more bulky body. The cave/brown bear part is an opinion on your part 3. Obviously 4. You can be as strong as you want but if you're top heavy you're still gonna hit the ground. And lastly why do you keep talking about cats? Pretty sure I already knew they hunt differently. 1. I don't know what image you have in your head, but if a Bear wants to put both of his arms inside the Aurochs, he will need to place his body there. 2. It says weighing up to 3,300 pounds.  And the Cave Bear is listed at 800-1,100 pounds. 3. You are really comparing a Boar to an Aurochs, aren't you?  Perhaps the fact that the Boar is usually smaller than Brown Bear, while the Aurochs is double the size of any Cave Bear has no significant meaning to you? 4. To emphasize the point that the Bears typical fighting strategy will not work here. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Feb 16, 2014 23:59:54 GMT 5
Not sure how right they are, but the OP does state some aurochs were 700 kilograms. That's still 40-75% heavier than a male cave bear. A 1.5 tonne aurochs would demolish any ursid IMO.
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And the Cave Bear is listed at 800-1,100 pounds.
Perhaps the fact that the Boar is usually smaller than Brown Bear, while the Aurochs is double the size of any Cave Bear has no significant meaning to you?