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Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 3, 2019 18:50:44 GMT 5
gorillas are far to strong for anacondas and weigh more , the anaconda could win if he can constrict him but that is unlikley as the gorilla would bite him before that can happen 1: No, if anything the anaconda is stronger. They are VERY muscular! 2: Once the anaconda coils, game over 3: The anaconda's durability should help it attack while being attacked |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 3, 2019 18:55:14 GMT 5
gorillas are far to strong for anacondas and weigh more , the anaconda could win if he can constrict him but that is unlikley as the gorilla would bite him before that can happen 1: No, if anything the anaconda is stronger. They are VERY muscular! 2: Once the anaconda coils, game over 3: The anaconda's durability should help it attack while being attacked wrong jaguars who have a weaker bite than gorillas can break through the anacondas skin the anaconda can not sucessfully coil around the gorilla without getting biten |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 3, 2019 18:57:05 GMT 5
1: No, if anything the anaconda is stronger. They are VERY muscular! 2: Once the anaconda coils, game over 3: The anaconda's durability should help it attack while being attacked wrong jaguars who have a weaker bite than gorillas can break through the anacondas skin the anaconda can not sucessfully coil around the gorilla without getting biten 1: How do you know they have stronger bites? I'd if anything expect them to be weaker 2: That may be true, but one bite will not end the fight. Many will be needed, and by them, constriction will have started |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 3, 2019 19:00:47 GMT 5
wrong jaguars who have a weaker bite than gorillas can break through the anacondas skin the anaconda can not sucessfully coil around the gorilla without getting biten 1: How do you know they have stronger bites? I'd if anything expect them to be weaker 2: That may be true, but one bite will not end the fight. Many will be needed, and by them, constriction will have started  a hyena has a stronger bite than a jaguar and a gorilla has a stronger bite than a hyena. gorillas are very smart i doubt that it would let the snake coil around it , dumber animals like jaguars and cougars deal with them daily , the only way the anaconda would win is if it can sneak attack the gorilla and coil it that way but in a face to face fight i think that is highly unlikley. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 3, 2019 19:13:42 GMT 5
1: How do you know they have stronger bites? I'd if anything expect them to be weaker 2: That may be true, but one bite will not end the fight. Many will be needed, and by them, constriction will have started a hyena has a stronger bite than a jaguar and a gorilla has a stronger bite than a hyena. gorillas are very smart i doubt that it would let the snake coil around it , dumber animals like jaguars and cougars deal with them daily , the only way the anaconda would win is if it can sneak attack the gorilla and coil it that way but in a face to face fight i think that is highly unlikley. Bite force is not even measured in psi… |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 3, 2019 19:20:15 GMT 5
a hyena has a stronger bite than a jaguar and a gorilla has a stronger bite than a hyena. gorillas are very smart i doubt that it would let the snake coil around it , dumber animals like jaguars and cougars deal with them daily , the only way the anaconda would win is if it can sneak attack the gorilla and coil it that way but in a face to face fight i think that is highly unlikley. Bite force is not even measured in psi… still this graph shows the gorilla has a stronger bite than a jaguar |
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Post by theropod on Jun 3, 2019 19:32:34 GMT 5
It does not. Given that the graph’s figures are correct, it only shows that a gorilla would have a stronger bite per unit area (though what area is meant by this is curiously never specified). It’s entirely possible an ant also has a "stronger" bite by that measurement, because it has nothing to do with the absolute force being produced.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 3, 2019 20:30:19 GMT 5
gorillas are very smart i doubt that it would let the snake coil around it , dumber animals like jaguars and cougars deal with them daily , the only way the anaconda would win is if it can sneak attack the gorilla and coil it that way but in a face to face fight i think that is highly unlikley. rock as theropod said, what you posted seems to be rather irrelevant to the outcome here. Moreover, intelligence is blatantly irrelevant in a fight, and gorillas do not deal with large snakes. Jaguars and mountain lions do, however |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 3, 2019 22:49:41 GMT 5
gorillas are very smart i doubt that it would let the snake coil around it , dumber animals like jaguars and cougars deal with them daily , the only way the anaconda would win is if it can sneak attack the gorilla and coil it that way but in a face to face fight i think that is highly unlikley. rock as theropod said, what you posted seems to be rather irrelevant to the outcome here. Moreover, intelligence is blatantly irrelevant in a fight, and gorillas do not deal with large snakes. Jaguars and mountain lions do, however anacondas do not deal with large primates either , they only eat monkeys but monkeys are much smaller and weaker than apes including humans.  |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 3, 2019 23:19:05 GMT 5
It does not. Given that the graph’s figures are correct, it only shows that a gorilla would have a stronger bite per unit area (though what area is meant by this is curiously never specified). It’s entirely possible an ant also has a "stronger" bite by that measurement, because it has nothing to do with the absolute force being produced. On the other hand, as TheROC once noted, the tensile strength exerted is more relevant than the total force when it comes to mechanical fracture which is what is being discussed here (naturally, size plays a role, too, but in this case, both a leopard and a gorilla can easily bite a. I know that you couldn't care less for their debate on "Could a gorilla defeat an anaconda?", but from my experience, "psi is not a unit of force" translates into "argument X is invalid" in many people's heads even though this is not entirely correct. Of course, it's good to point out correct unit measure, but we probably should also explain what these units even mean. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jun 4, 2019 0:26:29 GMT 5
rock as theropod said, what you posted seems to be rather irrelevant to the outcome here. Moreover, intelligence is blatantly irrelevant in a fight, and gorillas do not deal with large snakes. Jaguars and mountain lions do, however anacondas do not deal with large primates either , they only eat monkeys but monkeys are much smaller and weaker than apes including humans. To my knowledge (I may be wrong), anacondas usually only eat monkeys as juveniles because as an adult it's too much effort for too little food. As such, the majority of anaconda-monkey interactions are at a very close size ratio to this matchup. I don't like the primate's odds here |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 4, 2019 0:32:57 GMT 5
anacondas do not deal with large primates either , they only eat monkeys but monkeys are much smaller and weaker than apes including humans. To my knowledge (I may be wrong), anacondas usually only eat monkeys as juveniles because as an adult it's too much effort for too little food. As such, the majority of anaconda-monkey interactions are at a very close size ratio to this matchup. I don't like the primate's odds here this proves my point , anacondas do not even take on a fully grown monkey let alone a fully grown eastern silverback who can grow double times the monkeys size. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 4, 2019 1:08:29 GMT 5
On the other hand, as TheROC once noted, the tensile strength exerted is more relevant than the total force when it comes to mechanical fracture which is what is being discussed here Well, certainly a Gorilla’s bite would easily suffice to drive its canines through an anaconda’s skin, it has a huge sagittal crest, massive jaws, and feeds on tough, fibrous plant material. I think that goes without saying. Although it is technically correct that the stress produced by the teeth is the relevant unit for determining the ability to fracture bone, that alone remains a highly misleading statement. Firstly, that is independent of scale, and therefore also independent of the actual damage done by the bite. Secondly, giving bite pressure without telling us what area the pressure is measured over is meaningless. An animal bite has a maximum force it can excert. That force is an inherent property of its jaw apparatus, and doesn’t change appreciably given the animal is the same. The pressure totally depends on the circumstances. It will get bigger or smaller simply depending on how large the thing it is biting is, how many teeth make contact, the shape of the teeth, even how deeply the teeth have penetrated. Even more, any pressure above the compressive strength of bone is pretty much physically impossible to begin with, because bone will fail under it, meaning the teeth penetrate until the pressure evens out due to the area getting bigger. A hyaena can obviously generate bite pressures sufficient to puncture bone, just like a T. rex. But that doesn’t mean the former’s bite is in any way comparable to the latter’s. Well the argument was that a Gorilla supposedly had a higher bite force than a jaguar. That may or may not be true, but the argument is invalid. Besides the fact that the graph cites no sources, no proper estimation of a gorilla’s bite force OR pressure seems to exist in the published literature, and that the figures are, frankly, meaningless Of course, it's good to point out correct unit measure, but we probably should also explain what these units even mean.[/quote]I thought I’d done that. But It feels like I’m explaining this so often that I may be starting to lose my ability to tell apart the instances. "PSI" is a unit of pressure, pounds per square inch, that is, force per unit area. The proper unit for bite force would be Newtons, kilograms, or if you absolutely have to, pounds. From that follows that a smaller, much weaker animal could realistically have the same bite pressure as a much larger, much stronger animal, because bite force and area both scale to the same power. And yes, the pressure (=stress) does determine the ability to cause mechanical failure in a material, but it’s much more relevant on what scale an animal can do that. Lots of insects could probably do it as well (generate bite pressures above the peak compressive strength of keratin). |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 4, 2019 1:31:45 GMT 5
I thought I’d done that. But It feels like I’m explaining this so often that I may be starting to lose my ability to tell apart the instances. "PSI" is a unit of pressure, pounds per square inch, that is, force per unit area. The proper unit for bite force would be Newtons, kilograms, or if you absolutely have to, pounds. From that follows that a smaller, much weaker animal could realistically have the same bite pressure as a much larger, much stronger animal, because bite force and area both scale to the same power. And yes, the pressure (=stress) does determine the ability to cause mechanical failure in a material, but it’s much more relevant on what scale an animal can do that. Lots of insects could probably do it as well (generate bite pressures above the peak compressive strength of keratin). Conversely, giving figures I think I should have phrased that better. "We probably should also explain what these units mean in the context of what the poster wanted to say". It's a bit like with school or college where people are more likely to remember stuff if they understand why they should care for it. For this discussion, bite force per se is not really the topic, it's bite damage. Bite force and psi both only tell half the story as we need to know how large the animals jaws are to get an idea of a bite's scope and fracture potential. In this context however, the gorilla's jaws are of comparable size of those of a jaguar. Hence, if these figures were reliable (which I doubt for the same reasons as you do, a picture found by google is insufficient to answer a question even peer-reviewed literature can), they would probably support rock's argument that a gorilla bite is more dangerous to an anaconda than a jaguar's or leopard's (disregarding dentition), although rock should still learn to use correct units in the future. |
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rock
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Post by rock on Jun 4, 2019 1:33:32 GMT 5
On the other hand, as TheROC once noted, the tensile strength exerted is more relevant than the total force when it comes to mechanical fracture which is what is being discussed here Well, certainly a Gorilla’s bite would easily suffice to drive its canines through an anaconda’s skin, it has a huge sagittal crest, massive jaws, and feeds on tough, fibrous plant material. I think that goes without saying. Although it is technically correct that the stress produced by the teeth is the relevant unit for determining the ability to fracture bone, that alone remains a highly misleading statement. Firstly, that is independent of scale, and therefore also independent of the actual damage done by the bite. Secondly, giving bite pressure without telling us what area the pressure is measured over is meaningless. An animal bite has a maximum force it can excert. That force is an inherent property of its jaw apparatus, and doesn’t change appreciably given the animal is the same. The pressure totally depends on the circumstances. It will get bigger or smaller simply depending on how large the thing it is biting is, how many teeth make contact, the shape of the teeth, even how deeply the teeth have penetrated. Even more, any pressure above the compressive strength of bone is pretty much physically impossible to begin with, because bone will fail under it, meaning the teeth penetrate until the pressure evens out due to the area getting bigger. A hyaena can obviously generate bite pressures sufficient to puncture bone, just like a T. rex. But that doesn’t mean the former’s bite is in any way comparable to the latter’s. Well the argument was that a Gorilla supposedly had a higher bite force than a jaguar. That may or may not be true, but the argument is invalid. Besides the fact that the graph cites no sources, no proper estimation of a gorilla’s bite force OR pressure seems to exist in the published literature, and that the figures are, frankly, meaningless Of course, it's good to point out correct unit measure, but we probably should also explain what these units even mean. I thought I’d done that. But It feels like I’m explaining this so often that I may be starting to lose my ability to tell apart the instances. "PSI" is a unit of pressure, pounds per square inch, that is, force per unit area. The proper unit for bite force would be Newtons, kilograms, or if you absolutely have to, pounds. From that follows that a smaller, much weaker animal could realistically have the same bite pressure as a much larger, much stronger animal, because bite force and area both scale to the same power. And yes, the pressure (=stress) does determine the ability to cause mechanical failure in a material, but it’s much more relevant on what scale an animal can do that. Lots of insects could probably do it as well (generate bite pressures above the peak compressive strength of keratin). Conversely, giving figures[/quote] thank you for clearing that up anyhow i do think that one or two bites would be enough to kill the snake |
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