guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160 
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Post by guategojira on Jun 10, 2014 11:58:51 GMT 5
God IS:
Omnipotent = All Powerful
Omniscient = All Knowing
Omnipresent = Everywhere
Omnibenevolent = All Good
But you must be careful, in the moment that you “think” that you have understand God, you must be 100% sure than THAT is NOT God.
We can’t judge God by the Old Testament. The history of Israel is an INCOMPLETE revelation. In fact, we can’t be sure that in fact God send the Israelite to kill those people, although we also don’t know what type of persons were those cultures, specially by the fact that they sacrificed they children to the gods.
To say that God is not omnipotent just because he “can’t” create a squared circle is rubbish. God created the logic, so is obvious that there can’t be such a thing. Like coherentsheaf say, “Omnipotence in philosophical terms means being able to do anything that is metaphysically possible". God follow the logic, his logic (which is beyond the smartest human been, by the way), he created the laws of the universe, how can be against what He have done?
About the Babylonian exile, you most read the Bible, at that time the kingdom of Israel was already separated and they committed several sins and idolatry, then God decided to leave them to be punished for them abominations. However, even then, God send prophets, like Jeremias, to warn them and to say them that they should surrender and the punishment will be much smaller. However, the same people rejected that last merciful moment and they paid greatly. So, God was NOT defeated, he specifically decided that punishment.
The Omnibenevolent characteristics of God are perfectly presented in the New Testament, when Jesus Crist presents him as a God of love and infinite mercy. A prefiguration of this is already presented in the book of Jonas, but like I say, the Old Testament is an imperfect revelation. By the way, God don’t let children died of hunger, is humanity itself that kill they own brothers. Do you think that it will be hunger if the richness will be better distributed? Obviously not, but what we see now is just a modern era when people only search money and power, when we don’t even care about our neighbors and obviously the “mighty” first world countries control the production means. God give humanity full freedom, we are the ones that don’t know how to manage it.
The Islam opinion is practically irrelevant, because they are a steep back of the revelation, they returned to the “punisher god” idea.
Finally, I don’t believe that the Earth was created in 7 days, ok? The Genesis is a catechetical book in this first part, not a science book. The number “7” represent perfection, order, what the history of the creation wants to show is that God is a god of order and perfection. We must learn how to read the Bible, we must NOT read it just like that. Remember that the most intelligent men are fools against God Omniscient.
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Jun 10, 2014 12:05:28 GMT 5
Not according to the Bible which keeps talking about a day when he will bring justice, destroy the rich and rescue the poor. The belief in this is still a part of modern Christianity. The bible also has him explicitly saying that he creates evil and he is at best indifferent to our current position. God did not created evil. Is Satan which bring to evil to the world, and the heart of the man is injured with this inclination to sin, to go against the good. You should remember that the first sin was vanity, when this beautiful angel (Satan) at some time, believed that he was greater than God and rebelled against Him. For that reason, vanity should not be part of us. Finally, God is not indifferent to our position; He is with ALL of us every day. What happen is that we simple don’t want to see Him. The world is suffering not because God is indifferent, but because we, the humans, have created a culture of narcissism, that prefer the pleasure without limits and forgot the suffering that this cause to others. |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 10, 2014 13:24:44 GMT 5
Finally, I don’t believe that the Earth was created in 7 days, ok? The Genesis is a catechetical book in this first part, not a science book. The number “7” represent perfection, order, what the history of the creation wants to show is that God is a god of order and perfection. We must learn how to read the Bible, we must NOT read it just like that. Remember that the most intelligent men are fools against God Omniscient. I always believed the seven day creation was a symbol to show you should work six days and rest the seventh, never thought about this. P.S. About your point of poverty being the fault of humans, I may create a thread that discusses if Christianity and capitalism can coexist. The common answer is yes, but I don't believe it. |
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Post by creature386 on Jun 10, 2014 14:48:38 GMT 5
BTW, I now asked a convinced Christian and he said God can do whatever he wants he could also lie and so on, but the reason why he is still omniscient, omnipresent or whatever is because he wants this and it is simply part of his omnipotence.
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 10, 2014 19:23:09 GMT 5
The bible also has him explicitly saying that he creates evil and he is at best indifferent to our current position. God did not created evil. Is Satan which bring to evil to the world, and the heart of the man is injured with this inclination to sin, to go against the good. You should remember that the first sin was vanity, when this beautiful angel (Satan) at some time, believed that he was greater than God and rebelled against Him. For that reason, vanity should not be part of us. Finally, God is not indifferent to our position; He is with ALL of us every day. What happen is that we simple don’t want to see Him. The world is suffering not because God is indifferent, but because we, the humans, have created a culture of narcissism, that prefer the pleasure without limits and forgot the suffering that this cause to others. He explicitely says he creates evil: "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. " It is selfevident that he is indifferent to our situation else he would intervene in cases of gratitious evil like the second world war. |
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Jun 11, 2014 11:20:42 GMT 5
Finally, I don’t believe that the Earth was created in 7 days, ok? The Genesis is a catechetical book in this first part, not a science book. The number “7” represent perfection, order, what the history of the creation wants to show is that God is a god of order and perfection. We must learn how to read the Bible, we must NOT read it just like that. Remember that the most intelligent men are fools against God Omniscient. I always believed the seven day creation was a symbol to show you should work six days and rest the seventh, never thought about this. P.S. About your point of poverty being the fault of humans, I may create a thread that discusses if Christianity and capitalism can coexist. The common answer is yes, but I don't believe it. In fact, it is correct, but going deeper, if you read the creation history, you can see that in fact, there are two different stories, not just one. The first part, the one of the seven days is from the Yahvist tradition and follows the idea that God created the world in that time, but in fact, they are only trying to prove that the law (from Moses) of the seventh day rest most be applied because God have done the same. In other words, the history itself is, like I say, a catechetical form to support the law. The second history, that from Adan and Eva, came from the Elohist tradition and is more recent. In this part, the history focus on the humans and this is the part of the Eden and the entire thing. Again, the holy writer try to show that in the beginning there was a “golden age” when everything was good, but Satan deceived the humans and these last ones preferred to follow they will instead of that of God. Like we can see, and following the Christian interpretation each story follows a different objective, but at the end, the point is to show that God is a god of order, that He follows the rules established by him and that humans were created for perfection and for love, but our own inclination to sin is what have separate us from the love of God. Thankfully, Jesus changed all this, showing the real way and giving us the salvation through its sacrifice in the cross. It is a common believe, mostly in the “first world” countries, that the Christianity and the capitalism can coexist. However, this is not true, in fact, capitalism and communism are antagonistic, but the true Christianity is antagonistic of both. Capitalism creates the idea that children and old people are useless because they can’t create money. This ideology follow the money at all cost, creating an idea that all can be solved if you have power and it doesn’t matter what happen to your brother, if at the end, you are well. Capitalism is selfish and inhuman. It is funny to see that most of the modern horror movies put children and old men like the villains, we don’t see this at first sight, but this is also part of the capitalism ideology. Communism is based in an incorrect idea that you can have the happiness without God. They teach that there is no need of private property, that all the resources most be equal to all, and that is be good, but latter they change they words and they teach you that you most follow the ideology of materialism and you can’ think or say ANYHTING that is against it. They are killers and they will no doubt in destroying you if this serve to the colony. Communism punishes the free ideas, and is full of vanity trying to show that they have the only solution, only with the human mind and the worst of all, they descend the human dignity to a mere animal, saying that humans don’t have souls and that if you die, that is the end of all. Capitalism and communism and just poor human ideologies with hundreds of interpretations that at the end, are unable to reach the final goal, the happiness of humanity. By the way, God can’t lie, because He is the truth. He is the life, the source of everything in the universe. We will never understand this because like San Agustin states in his revelations, the wisdom of God is so large, that if a human try to understand it, is like to try to put the entire ocean in a little glass of water. |
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Jun 11, 2014 11:21:26 GMT 5
God did not created evil. Is Satan which bring to evil to the world, and the heart of the man is injured with this inclination to sin, to go against the good. You should remember that the first sin was vanity, when this beautiful angel (Satan) at some time, believed that he was greater than God and rebelled against Him. For that reason, vanity should not be part of us. Finally, God is not indifferent to our position; He is with ALL of us every day. What happen is that we simple don’t want to see Him. The world is suffering not because God is indifferent, but because we, the humans, have created a culture of narcissism, that prefer the pleasure without limits and forgot the suffering that this cause to others. He explicitely says he creates evil: "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. " It is selfevident that he is indifferent to our situation else he would intervene in cases of gratitious evil like the second world war. You are mixing things here, the text don’t say that God “created evil” in ANY form, the text (from the Old Testament, by the way – an imperfect revelation, do you remember?) say that He create “calamity”. The expression shows that he creates the dry desert and the storm, the earthquake and the thunder, calamities in old times. He can punish, but he is also rich in mercy and slow to the anger. Again, you must learn how to interpret the Bible; we CAN’T just take the Bible and read it lightly like many protestant sects. In this form, many crazy persons had created churches that even kill they own members. It is self-evident that He is NOT indifferent to our situation, He send his own Son, Jesus Christ, to save us and to teach us the way, the truth and to give us salvation. About the war, you must remember that God had given us full freedom and he believes in us. It has been our actions what created the first and the second war, not God presence or absence. I am going to put this to you in this form. God created the world and tell us that we can do everything except to eat from a puny tree, but we decided to follow our will and we destroyed everything. Then God decided to give us a change, to let us to decide our own faith, and the result is the terrible present situation. However, God respect our free will and He have faith in us, in the fact that we can be better each day and even in the horror of the war, the best of humanity shined as well. There must be darkness in order to see the light and these calamities in history most show us that we CAN’T take the fate of the society entirely in our hands, we need Him with us. I am 100% sure that if God came again and began to say that we must do just what He want, without any free-will from ourselves, the humanity, in its present state, will began to attack Him in order to defend its “freedom”. God knows that, we are still not prepared, we need to grow, to know him more. Finally, you must remember that the Holy Virgin Mary clearly mentioned, in Fatima, that if the world don’t repent from its sins, a second war, worst that the first one, will rise. Sadly, the Second World War was the result, but this is because the stubbornness of the world simply can’t accept the fact that we need Him! We can create hundreds of economic and social theories, but we will never found the truth if we don’t have him in our hearts. I still remember how many times Saint John Paul II said that the worst mistake of the European Union was to denied its Christian rots, now it is only a matter of time that this human conception will fall, victim of its own voracity and vanity. |
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 11, 2014 13:52:42 GMT 5
He explicitely says he creates evil: "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. " It is selfevident that he is indifferent to our situation else he would intervene in cases of gratitious evil like the second world war. You are mixing things here, the text don’t say that God “created evil” in ANY form, the text (from the Old Testament, by the way – an imperfect revelation, do you remember?) say that He create “calamity”. The expression shows that he creates the dry desert and the storm, the earthquake and the thunder, calamities in old times. He can punish, but he is also rich in mercy and slow to the anger. Again, you must learn how to interpret the Bible; we CAN’T just take the Bible and read it lightly like many protestant sects. In this form, many crazy persons had created churches that even kill they own members. I am not mixing at all. He says he creates light ad darkness, well being and calamity, claiming universal responsibility for the human condition. This is directly implied from the quote. This is not like some protestant sect, which would prefer your misreading of the passage. The god of the old and the new testament is an asshole. Several things: Firs,from our current epistemic standpoint this is nothing but nonsense. We do not know what Jesus really did and how much about him is embellsihment. And even if he sent Jesus, the evils he let happen throughout history outweigh any good Jesus intervention has doe. Third, Jesus' advice is almost universally bad. About the war, you must remember that God had given us full freedom and he believes in us. It has been our actions what created the first and the second war, not God presence or absence. I am going to put this to you in this form. God created the world and tell us that we can do everything except to eat from a puny tree, but we decided to follow our will and we destroyed everything. [/quote] ote that the original the eating of the fruit was not an informed decision. Most of the fault falls to god for placing temptation in front of the unknowing. He then selfrightously condemns humans(all humans) for his own mistake and that of two individuals. This passage shows that god neither understands justice nor responsibility. Free will is not sufficient to explain evil in this case. I will explain using an analogy. Suppose you witness someone torturing the innocent and can stop him. You would be infringing on the free will of the the torturer if you did, in a far less competent way than god, but it is nevertheless moral imperative to intervene. Any entity who does not, cannot be called good. If the entity is capable of moral reasoning it can be called evil. Absolutely incorrect. Our brain can detect light, regardless wheter there is darkness. Similarly good is not relative, but absolute in my view. Contrast is not necessary. It is not a question of letting us have free will. It is a question of him intervening if something fundamentally evil happens, something which he consistently fails to do. Note that the second fatima prophecy was not disclosed until 1941, it can best be seen as prediction after the fact and hence worthless. |
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blaze
Paleo-artist 
Posts: 766
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Post by blaze on Jun 11, 2014 23:27:00 GMT 5
I'll recommend watching Baud Bits series on the book of genesis. watch here.btw, a "satan" character as an angel cast out of heaven for rebelling against god comes from the bible's "extended universe" not the biblical canon. |
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 12, 2014 0:31:55 GMT 5
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Jun 12, 2014 10:10:53 GMT 5
You are mixing things here, the text don’t say that God “created evil” in ANY form, the text (from the Old Testament, by the way – an imperfect revelation, do you remember?) say that He create “calamity”. The expression shows that he creates the dry desert and the storm, the earthquake and the thunder, calamities in old times. He can punish, but he is also rich in mercy and slow to the anger. Again, you must learn how to interpret the Bible; we CAN’T just take the Bible and read it lightly like many protestant sects. In this form, many crazy persons had created churches that even kill they own members. I am not mixing at all. He says he creates light ad darkness, well being and calamity, claiming universal responsibility for the human condition. This is directly implied from the quote. This is not like some protestant sect, which would prefer your misreading of the passage. The god of the old and the new testament is an asshole. Several things: Firs,from our current epistemic standpoint this is nothing but nonsense. We do not know what Jesus really did and how much about him is embellsihment. And even if he sent Jesus, the evils he let happen throughout history outweigh any good Jesus intervention has doe. Third, Jesus' advice is almost universally bad. About the war, you must remember that God had given us full freedom and he believes in us. It has been our actions what created the first and the second war, not God presence or absence. I am going to put this to you in this form. God created the world and tell us that we can do everything except to eat from a puny tree, but we decided to follow our will and we destroyed everything. ote that the original the eating of the fruit was not an informed decision. Most of the fault falls to god for placing temptation in front of the unknowing. He then selfrightously condemns humans(all humans) for his own mistake and that of two individuals. This passage shows that god neither understands justice nor responsibility. Free will is not sufficient to explain evil in this case. I will explain using an analogy. Suppose you witness someone torturing the innocent and can stop him. You would be infringing on the free will of the the torturer if you did, in a far less competent way than god, but it is nevertheless moral imperative to intervene. Any entity who does not, cannot be called good. If the entity is capable of moral reasoning it can be called evil. Absolutely incorrect. Our brain can detect light, regardless wheter there is darkness. Similarly good is not relative, but absolute in my view. Contrast is not necessary. It is not a question of letting us have free will. It is a question of him intervening if something fundamentally evil happens, something which he consistently fails to do. Note that the second fatima prophecy was not disclosed until 1941, it can best be seen as prediction after the fact and hence worthless.[/quote] ================================================================================================================================ Sorry, but you are actually mixing things. You are misinterpreting the passage, putting words in the text that are not the correct ones. You most read the CONTEXT of the TEXT, and you are directly avoiding this. The text that you are quoting (by the way, from where is this quote, what is the book?) probably is just an allegory to describe that God is the former of everything. In ANY part of it is say that “he create evil”. By the way, you should be very afraid right now, for saying that God is an as…le, that is an HUGE blasphemy. Of course, God is not going to punish you, but if you close the door of your own salvation, then, who is going to save you? We DO know what Jesus actually teach, and the good of Jesus outweigh by FAR all the evil in history! Jesus told us the truth, the ONLY truth, even science, been only a gift of God, most steep a side at some point. Your words are so full of hate against the only one that have actually loved us with all his been. I simply can’t understand how you can live with that form of thinking, what suffering affected you in order to hate the only one that is true love, that one that loves you and is ready to enter in your life, you show you that there is greatness in your heart that is beyond any mortal eye. In the history of Eden, the catechetical message is trying to prove that humanity is prone to sin, that is the point of the history. Here, God clearly told them that they can do ANYTHING in the garden, except to eat from one single puny tree. The human decision, inspired by Satan brings disaster to humanity. However, about “selfrightously condemns humans(all humans) for his own mistake and that of two individuals”, you most know that Adan and Eva were not real, they are only figures of humanity, that decided to follow they own ideas instead of the perfect ones from God. It is obvious that you have not read my previous post, the history of the creations is just a CATEQUESIS, not a scientific explanation of the world. By the way, God don’t make mistakes, that is an old idea of the imperfect revelation of the Judaism and taken back by Islam, but is not present in the complete revelation of Christianity and the words of Jesus. Your case about the free will and the torturer, in fact, don’t support your words. That is the case of human in human world, and even the worst of the persons has its own free will. However, what you see here as an injustice, in fact it will be paid by the evil person, and not with 100 years of prison, but by the eternity out of any good, in the emptiness of hell. You can’t deceive God, he give you the chance of been good in your life, but if you reject this chance, you condemn yourself. Other thing, you speak in human terms, saying that God “most” do things because you think is right or wrong, but we simply don’t know why some things happen, we see the world only through a dark glass, we CAN’T judge God, it is simply idiotic to do it. Now, about my example of the light, you take it literally. It seems that you are unable to understand the parables, the form that Jesus speaks and the way that the Bible is written. You can’t take any part of the Bible literally without a correct interpretation, which it is why exists the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in order to interpret correctly. The same goes to my example of the light. Good is absolute, and the example of small people defeating great evil powers support my claim, even in the worst wars. About this: “It is not a question of letting us have free will. It is a question of him intervening if something fundamentally evil happens, something which he consistently fails to do.” Do actually know history? Do you know how many empires had been defeated by the good of God? Who in the first century will think that a small group of Christians will help to defeat the great Roman Empire, or that the words of one Pope will help to destroy the communism in Europe? God not only act in history, but make huge changes, if you can’t see them, then you have a problem of perception. The evil will exist in this world, that is certain, but like Jesus say, there will be the day when the workers will crop and they will separate the good seed from the bad one, and in that day, nothing will save those that have make evil. This time is the opportunity to convert the bad persons, to show them the mercy of God. People can change, but they need to be told the good news. Finally, the part of the war in the secret of Fatima was presented earlier. Even then, humanity didn’t listen, just like now. But I don’t lose my faith, we can change for good, and this is the Christian spirit, we see the light even in the darkness and then, miracles happen, by the grace of our Lord.  |
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Jun 12, 2014 10:20:17 GMT 5
I'll recommend watching Baud Bits series on the book of genesis. watch here.btw, a "satan" character as an angel cast out of heaven for rebelling against god comes from the bible's "extended universe" not the biblical canon. In fact, this idea was first revealed by Jesus, when he presents Satan as the tempter, the accusatory and the true enemy of humanity and everything good. In the letter of Saint Judas Tadeo, he presents the part when Satan fights against Saint Michael Archangel, for the body of Moses. The devil insulted him with bad words, but Michael only said to him: “May God rebuke you”. Also, Saint Peter wrote in his letter (don’t remember which), that the devil is like a roaring lion, searching to kill. So, in the New Testament, the devil is fully presented as the true enemy, full of hate against everything in the universe. |
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blaze
Paleo-artist
Posts: 766
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Post by blaze on Jun 12, 2014 11:42:00 GMT 5
The problem is that you are getting that from modern bibles, which in all cases, at least pertaining to the OT, when a reference to the devil is made, what in the original languages said "an adversary", "a deceiver" or something to that effect has been translated in a way to suggest the existence of a single powerful evil being that opposes god. The NT does seem to mention that... but from where this devil came from and why is he not in the OT? www.biblecourses.co.uk/luke/Course/additional-notes/10.htmThe BBC made a nice documentary about it, "How the devil got his horns". btw watch the videos I previously linked, I just want you to get to actually read, carefully, what the bible says, and after that tell me if those are really the writings of an all knowing, all powerful being. |
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Post by coherentsheaf on Jun 12, 2014 18:22:21 GMT 5
Sorry, but you are actually mixing things. You are misinterpreting the passage, putting words in the text that are not the correct ones. You most read the CONTEXT of the TEXT, and you are directly avoiding this. The text that you are quoting (by the way, from where is this quote, what is the book?) probably is just an allegory to describe that God is the former of everything. So without having read it you know that I misinterpreted it? how is this even possible? Sure it does: He says he creates calamities in contradiction to human flourishing. This is an evil deed. Noone. This is one of the most intrinsicaly stupid arguments. I do not believe in god, hence I do not fear hell, since I do not think it exists. And even if he existed vicarious redemption would still be impossible since it is a contradiction in terms. Even if he existed, he could not save you. Utterly absurd. Just try to estimate how many billion violent and cruel animal deaths happened on this planet until there were humans. And how many billion humans died the same way. Just absurd. Nope. Jesus spent his life giving us half truths and bad advice indistinguishable from the words of a megalomaniacal iron age carpenter. Nope they are full of contempt for a badly written fictional character. The only thing I suffered was reading the bible. Boring as hell. He nevertheless placed temptation in front of those who did not comprehend and placed an deceiver among them so that they would fail their tasl. Responsibility is on him, not the humans. It was his decision not theirs. Reread the text. I do not think that they are meant to be fictional i the context of the story. If this is the case provide evidence for your proposition. But even if this is a metaphor god ist the main culprit within the metaphor. Oh I read it and responded point by point. The only thing that is obvious is that you did not understand my response: I did not comment on the fact wheter the creation account is a literal scientific account. It is obvious from reading the bible that go made many mistakes at various points. In several cases he admits to it like for example: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+18And we as society deny them their free will do to as they see fit. We imprison or kill them if they try, and this is the good thing to do. Gods intervention could be more effective, but he fails t intervene, and hence can only be paited as indifferent. This is just anther reason why god is evil: I do not want the bad to be tortured, I want noone to be tortured. If god tortures people for eternity, he is evil. If this entity indeed existed, I hope we can create sufficiently powerful machines to destroy it. No, he condems me. Read the godamn bible. It is true that we do not know very purpose. But this is irrelevant to my argument. My argument is that gratitious evil exists. And this is an easy inference since most evil is convincingly explained as product of radom processes like e.g. radiation. I didn't. Read again. He did not. The romans became christians. And what followed was a thousand years of darkness. And I thought it was destroyed by bad economics. TMYK Absurd. There is not one demonstrable godly intervention in history and the history god was supposed to change was nothing but a song of blood and tears, strongly implying no overwhelming good force directed it. |
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