Could gorgonopsids use their forelimbs in hunting/combat?

[Infinity Blade]

I've seen some skeletons and skeletals of some gorgonopsids and thought their forelimbs and shoulders were pretty robust. So I wondered if they could use their potentially powerful forelimbs in the same way as some other synapsid predators (big cats, bears, etc.). What do you think?

[theropod]

I think they could.

For their time, they may have been fairly cursorial (not very difficult, since they were seemingly among the first to even evolve a parasagittal stance and fore- and hindlimbs of similar lenght), but they are nowhere near comparable to extant animals that don’t or only rarely use their limbs in grappling.

www.palaeocritti.com/_/rsrc/1257700063544/by-group/gorgonopsia/lycaenops/Lycaenops_ornatus_skeleton.jpg
fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/025/1/7/timber_wolf_skeleton_by_mad_taxidermist-d4nmixw.jpg
Their limb robusticity is indeed far greater than that seen in canids, and from the looks of it most comparable to ursids or machairodontids.

Of course from the data we have, it is difficult to tell how flexible they were, but I suppose it is likely that retaining the plesiomorphic amniote condition would absolutely suffice in that regard.

[creature386]

digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/handle/2246/401//v2/dspace/ingest/pdfSource/bul/B089a06.pdf?sequence=1
Data on the flexibility is present. Assuming it can rear up, this should be enough. It maybe should be noted though that Colbert's data on Lycaenops' locomotion comes from using the alligator as an analogy. But since I assume rauisuchians can rear up, gorgonopsids shall be able to do so as well.

[blaze]

Gebauer (2007)

This thesis is relevant, look for the section about the shoulder joint.

As it turns out gorgonopsians had their himlimbs in a semierect posture but their forelimbs adopted an sprawling one (Kemp, 2005) though they might have been capable of taking on a semierect one too (Gebauer, 2007) but looking at the figures neither could be placed under the body, which makes me think that rauisuchians are not a good analogy, those guys did have their limbs under their body like dinosaurs and large mammals.

[theropod]

Cats also often rear up when using their forelimbs on something, and there’s the movement range of the antebrachium to be considered too.
Seems it has a posteriorly facing glenoid, similar to theropods, but I guess it wouldn’t be a matter singe its forelimbs are much longer. Any data on spine flexibility?

In lycaenops, the spinous processes are rather short, but supposedly rather long in other gorgonopsians.

Good find, I had almost forgotten about those books (quite embarassing, I know).

[Infinity Blade]

So with their sprawling forelimbs, what effect would this have for predation and combat use?

[blaze]

Gebauer (2007) also discusses that, Sauroctonus had a plesiomorphic vertebral column but that the more posterior you go in the column the more steepely oriented the zygapophyses become compared to therocephalians and some cynodonts, suggesting that the posterior part of the back was proportionally more rigid. In the case of Smilodon, a rigid lumbar región is interpreted as an adaptation to resists the forces of an struggling prey item when the predator stands on its hindlimbs, it is possible that what we see in Sauroctonus is a similar adaptation, albeit considerably far less developed.

@ausar
This are the conclusions of Gebauer (2007)

Sauroctonus on the other hand is considered less cursorial [than Smilodon] in any case since it is supposed to move in the typical reptilian sprawling gate. However, as shown in the previous chapter the animal was additionally able to move in a somewhat semi-erect gait not only with the hindlimbs as pointed out by kemP (1982, 2005) but also with the forelimbs. The neck musculature is well developed and the back somewhat shortened with respect to certain therocephalians and early cynodonts. The girdles are not much different but the limb bones are without exception more massive and additionally the lower limbs are shorter. The limb musculature with strong adductor muscles on the one hand was needed for sprawling locomotion but furthermore stabilized the animal when capturing prey and wrestling with it. The gorgonopsian claw is well developed and curved with a sharp and pointed tip. Therefore, it is plausible that those animals could hold and bring down their victims to conduct a precise throat bite as it is proposed for saber-toothed cats. However, with the probably rather sluggish and slow dicynodonts in mind, which are the presumed diet, a predator probably did not need all too much grasping force. On the other hand, if prey also covered more agile animals such as other gorgonopsians or therocephalians, it is well conceivable that the claws additionally were used to seize the victim.

Tough, I have no idea how their grappling will look like, vaguely similar to a cat's? or like the "hugs" that komodo dragons give each other when fighting.

[Infinity Blade]

Great! I guess they can use their forelimbs.

[creature386]

Jul 7, 2014 23:24:23 GMT 5 theropod said:

Good find, I had almost forgotten about those books (quite embarassing, I know).

Not really embarrassing, I for example was perfectly aware of Gebauer (I cited him in the Lycaenops profile), yet I thought Colbert is the only comprehensive information source I have… Well, this happens.

Awesome work as usual blaze, but your link needed some reparation.

[blaze]

lol, I don't know what's wrong with it haha.

this is the url

tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/volltexte/2007/2935/pdf/Eva_Gebauer.pdf

[creature386]

I saw your post and you forgot the http:// in it. Anyway, it is now repaired anyway.

[theropod]

The embarrassing thing was that I had actually downloaded both months ago.

In any case, there seems to be a sort of consensus that gorgonopsids could use their forelimbs for grappling, right?

[Godzillasaurus]

Creature, does the angle refer to that of the elbow (or otherwise known as the upper arm-forearm joint)/knee (same thing but with the femur and foreleg bones)? Or am I overlooking something?

[creature386]

Nope, it is the angle of the humerus/femur to the midline.

[Infinity Blade]

Because of their grasp capacity carnivorous non-mammaliamorph Therapsida, e.g., Gorgonopsia, could hold their prey with the manus and pedes. This holding of the prey was a prerequisite for the development of large, laterally compressed fangs (saber teeth) that mainly take loads in the longitudinal direction. Lateral forces, e.g., those applied by struggling prey, could have resulted in failure of the tooth.

Kümmell & Frey (2014)

It looks like grasping ability of the hands, as well as the feet(!), was well-developed in gorgonopsians (although one specimen the authors examined had less developed manual grasping ability compared to other gorgonopsians).