Megalodon vs. Livyatan melvillei

[Grey]

I understand well the viewpoint and it is interesting (who has never dreamt of a giant-sized orca ?) but the evidences are too limited at this point. Proof is, it has not been suggested anywhere.

Physeter has been used more logically as a model than orca in the original paper because of its similar size-range with Livyatan (10 m and more) and closer phylogenetic. That's why Physeter is better than orca, which does not mean it is a wise analogue at all.

Convergent evolution could be more revelant if Livyatan was an animal in a similar range than orca, but it was probably an animal roughly twice longer, with a specific evolution.

My current opinion of Livyatan body shape is quite reminiscent of the one of Brygmophyseter used as a model : a bulky sperm whale but not as much barrel-chested and quite bigger headed than an orca by comparison.

C. megalodon is another story. The analogy with the white shark exists but as a modified white shark/lamnid/lamniform. These different basis has less impact on the total length than use physeteroids or delphinids as basis for Livyatan.

Using delphinids for Livyatan is pretty much like using carchariniforms for C. megalodon. Unlikely, even if Kent talks about this slight possibility in his latest paper.

[creature386]

May 19, 2013 15:31:00 GMT 5 Grey said:

C. megalodon is another story. The analogy with the white shark exists but as a modified white shark/lamnid/lamniform.

We would have a similar problem, if the assumption of it being an otodontid rather than a lamnid is correct.

[Grey]

Regarding C. megalodon, I actually believe into Kent's model, the most recent, based on the most up to date suggestions, even if I use the skeletal structure of Gottfried for comparisons with other skeletons. It can be done as such because the differences are limited and there is no big impact on the total length. When I showed to Kent the comparison coherentsheaf made of the feeding apparatus of cetaceans with the mouth of the Gottfried meg skeleton, he expressed no criticism and found it pretty reasonnable.

Anyway, here's the actual depiction of Kent for C. megalodon, modified from the giant Carcharodon Gottfried made in 1996 :


Note : I ask to not bring this model in other forums for now please.


Kent believes megalodon was perhaps the largest marine predator in the Earth's history but is quite cautious regarding its maximum size. He believes that 18 m TL is certain, but argues that there is not at now definite evidences that it reached 20 m +. He argues that we might found such proofs but believes that at such sizes, it would have been fast but not enough manoeuvrable to be primarily an active hunter. He explains this further in his incoming publication.

It would be interesting to have a human model with this 18 m TL model.

This is I think the most realistic and modern view we can have of the megatooth shark.

[Fragillimus335]

I'd say Megalodon would take this fight.

[gigadino96]

I do not know. Megalodon is slightly larger (~ 20.3 meters in length), but has a smaller bite*.

*


50/50.

[Grey]

Don't use this crap drawing. It was made by a really biased guy in a prevous discussion. The megalodon here is skinny and certainl not large-sized, the Livyatan looks like a mosasaurian whale...

Look at the comparisons of the actual reconstructions I've made in the first post of this page.

That comparison offers a better insight on their respective jaws.

[gigadino96]

In this case, Megalodon wins.

[Grey]

I don't claim a definitive answer there, but with what we have now and looking at the respective jaws volume in these rigorous reconstructions, I'm quite sure that megalodon takes this. But I question this reguarly...if the meg was smaller after all..., If Liyatan was larger than thinked...

But that's the best I think we have.

[Grey]

Another of the same indication about why I usually favor more likely the giant lamniform rather than the giant physeteroid.




An adult human cannot do this inside the mouth of Livyatan...

[Runic]

Aren't larger whales more rammers than biters?

[Grey]

Livyatan was probably a very powerful biter, it has the largest predatory jaws known in tetrapods.

It had a spermaceti organ and was probably a powerful rammer but I highly doubt it was as specialized as the modern sperm whale which possess a much larger chamber.

[Runic]

May 29, 2013 23:56:25 GMT 5 Grey said:

Livyatan was probably a very powerful biter, it has the largest predatory jaws known in tetrapods.

It had a spermaceti organ and was probably a powerful rammer but I highly doubt it was as specialized as the modern sperm whale which possess a much larger chamber.

I understand the spermaceti organ ordeal. But I see this debate focusing on bite alone. When Livyatan has another weapon, it's head. Also just wondering. How many bites do you think it will take for megaladon to end livyatan? I ask because I don't see the macropredatory shark ending a whale almost as big as it (based on current info) in one bite. Better yet, after it DOES bite livyatan. Is it gonna just swallow all that meat in a instant? Or is it gonna spit it out? I never heard of sharks repeatedly biting in rapid succession ever before.

[Grey]

I don't try to establish some kind of scenario in a battle because of the lack of datas of both species.

I simply look at their respective assumed size, traits and weapons.

Regarding megalodon attacking strategy, we strongly suggest that it was different than the white shark (check the Hell's Teeth article in the dedicated profile). It is described as far more direct than the white shark for example when attacking. It targetted hard parts and attempted to kill quickly the animal by internal damages while crushing the vital organs.

It is assumed it did this on small whales. With large whales, it is implied that megalodon targetted the propulsive systems and bled the cetcean to death.

Regarding its ability to quickly kill a large whale, I let Chuck Ciampaglio explains this at 31.25 in that video.



The same life-size model in the program indicates an ability to engulf 1860 pounds of organic substances in one bite. For speakinf with Ciampaglio, I know he considers it like an underestimate (I can give you the discussion). Given its assumed agressive and brutal behavior compared to the white shark, I don't think Livyatan would be able to survive to several bite taking 1 ton or so of flesh each time. And given the jaws volume, I doubt it was able to do the same...

[creature386]

May 30, 2013 0:09:08 GMT 5 Runic said:

Also just wondering. How many bites do you think it will take for megaladon to end livyatan? I ask because I don't see the macropredatory shark ending a whale almost as big as it (based on current info) in one bite. Better yet, after it DOES bite livyatan. Is it gonna just swallow all that meat in a instant? Or is it gonna spit it out? I never heard of sharks repeatedly biting in rapid succession ever before.

It seems like C. megalodon is more adapted for instant kills than the great white is:

Kent suspects that the prehistoric shark attacked the bony shoulder and rib cage of its prey, trying to crush the bones and damage the heart, lungs or other delicate organs. In contrast to a slower death from the jaws of a great white, the victim of a megalodon would have died suddenly from massive internal injuries.

www.newscientist.com/article/mg16221904.900-hells-teeth.html

[theropod]

The jaws of Livyatan were not made to extract chunks of meat. however if one considers robust teeth and strong bite force necessarily indicative of quicker killing, that would likely mean Livyatan has the edge. Of course that isn't true in this way, since animals kill in different ways.

Thinking about it, the thicker teeth are at least partly allometric (counteracting the square/cube law).