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Post by Grey on Nov 14, 2019 0:09:38 GMT 5
Interesting, can you scale to the proposed size of the Yorktown meg (~370 cm) ?
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Post by Life on Nov 14, 2019 0:35:11 GMT 5
Although the Megalodon could open its jaw to greater extent, that is still good work. Realistic for Livyatan in particular.
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Post by sam1 on Nov 14, 2019 1:09:34 GMT 5
I'm glad you guys like it! Although I'm not satisfied it it myself, knowing that it can be done so much better. Of course the purpose was just to show some basic visual perspective so I can live with it.
Grey, yeah I can scale the Yorktown dentition size, just give me some time.
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Post by theropod on Nov 14, 2019 1:56:23 GMT 5
Livyatan holotype vs megalodon based on the 320cm dUJP jaw reconstruction. I made meg with close to 90° gape, and livyatan with around 75°. How did you scale this based on jaw perimeter? |
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Post by sam1 on Nov 14, 2019 2:45:33 GMT 5
Livyatan holotype vs megalodon based on the 320cm dUJP jaw reconstruction. I made meg with close to 90° gape, and livyatan with around 75°. How did you scale this based on jaw perimeter? Well, I used the bellow depiction you posted, accounted for the angle and kinda transformed it into profile view. I also used some "artistic freedom" and made the rest of the head using the GWS as a cue.  |
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Post by theropod on Nov 14, 2019 2:55:22 GMT 5
Ah, I see. I was wondering if there was some way to directly scale based on jaw perimeter, using the ratio between the jaw length and perimeter in the great white or something like that, but that would have required data I don’t have, so I was curious. But I guess that’s how it could be done. Nice work, definitely.
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Post by sam1 on Nov 17, 2019 3:26:38 GMT 5
Interesting, can you scale to the proposed size of the Yorktown meg (~370 cm) ? Here you go.  I decided to do some slight changes to both btw. |
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otodus
Junior Member Rank 1
Posts: 20
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Post by otodus on Feb 10, 2020 11:29:07 GMT 5
<trans oldtip="^And did you see me suggesting " newtip="你看到我在暗示">你看到我在暗示</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip=" preying on megalodon the way orcas do with great whites anywhere?" newtip="猎食巨兽就像大白鲨在任何地方一样？">猎食巨兽就像大白鲨在任何地方一样？</trans> <trans oldtip="The area a bite actually impacts is proportional to the length of the tooth row, not the space between them. If an animal has two deep cuts metres in length across its body, it matters precious little if the distance between those two cuts is 1 m or 2 m, the blood loss will be about the same either way." newtip="咬一口的面积实际上与牙齿的长度成正比，而不是与它们之间的间隙成正比。如果一只动物的身长有两米深，那么如果这两条伤口之间的距离是1米或2米，那么两者之间的失血量将大致相同。">咬一口的面积实际上与牙齿的长度成正比，而不是与它们之间的间隙成正比。如果一只动物的身长有两米深，那么如果这两条伤口之间的距离是1米或2米，那么两者之间的失血量将大致相同。</trans> <trans oldtip="But then again, " newtip="但话又说回来，">但话又说回来，</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip="’s teeth are not adapted to cut in the first place." newtip="他的牙齿一开始就不适合切割。">他的牙齿一开始就不适合切割。</trans> <trans oldtip="And have I ever called that into question? No." newtip="我有质疑过吗？没有。">我有质疑过吗？没有。</trans> <trans oldtip="Of course one bite by " newtip="当然一口一口">当然一口一口</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip=" is potentially fatal for megalodon too, if not due to mechanical damage (though surely devastating as well) then due to the immobilizing grip making ram ventilation impossible." newtip="对于巨龙来说也是致命的，如果不是由于机械损坏(虽然也是毁灭性的)，那是因为固定的抓地力使公羊无法通风。">对于巨龙来说也是致命的，如果不是由于机械损坏(虽然也是毁灭性的)，那是因为固定的抓地力使公羊无法通风。</trans> <trans oldtip="You can repeat the calculations and add 7 cm (2%) for shrinkage if you want, that makes very little difference to the implications. On the other hand, as I’ve previously outlined I think the perimeter estimate is pretty liberal, as the shark seems to have an unusually large perimeter for the size of its teeth, but I’m fine with going with this figure for now if that’s something you can agree to use." newtip="你可以重复计算，如果你愿意的话，可以增加7厘米(2%)的收缩，这对影响的影响很小。另一方面，正如我之前所描述的，我认为这个周长估计是相当宽松的，因为鲨鱼的牙齿大小似乎有一个非常大的周长，但我现在可以接受这个数字，如果你同意使用这个数字的话。">你可以重复计算，如果你愿意的话，可以增加7厘米(2%)的收缩，这对影响的影响很小。另一方面，正如我之前所描述的，我认为这个周长估计是相当宽松的，因为鲨鱼的牙齿大小似乎有一个非常大的周长，但我现在可以接受这个数字，如果你同意使用这个数字的话。</trans> <trans oldtip="No good frontal view pictures of " newtip="没有良好的正面图片">没有良好的正面图片</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip="’s skull available, too much perspective. That’s why you guys always use random people in the frame for scaling, after all, resulting in comparisons where the two things being compared differ by several metres in terms of how far they are from the camera in the respective shots." newtip="有头骨，透视图太大了。这就是为什么你们总是在框架中使用随机的人来缩放，毕竟，结果是比较这两种事物的不同之处，在不同的镜头中，它们离摄像机有多远。">有头骨，透视图太大了。这就是为什么你们总是在框架中使用随机的人来缩放，毕竟，结果是比较这两种事物的不同之处，在不同的镜头中，它们离摄像机有多远。</trans> <trans oldtip="That is scaled to the jaw perimeter you estimate for the Yorktown dentition." newtip="这是你估计的约克镇牙列的下颚周长。">这是你估计的约克镇牙列的下颚周长。</trans> <trans oldtip="Actually, while we are at it:" newtip="事实上，当我们在做的时候：">事实上，当我们在做的时候：</trans>  <trans oldtip="conservative vs conservative: " newtip="保守与保守：">保守与保守：</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip=" holotype with 197 cm BZW and 294 cm CBL based on " newtip="197 cm BZW和294 cm CBL的全型">197 cm BZW和294 cm CBL的全型</trans> <trans oldtip="Physeter" newtip="菲斯特">菲斯特</trans><trans oldtip=" (14.2 m standard length), meg with 370 m dUJP based on Mollet et al.’s data (14.9 m TL)." newtip="(14.2米标准长度)，根据Mollet等人的数据(14.9mTL)，MEG为370 m dUJP。">(14.2米标准长度)，根据Mollet等人的数据(14.9mTL)，MEG为370 m dUJP。</trans> Hello, my English is not very good, but I also checked the latest Leviathan research and consulted some cetaceans in our country for some clues. My opinion is consistent with you. Leviathan whale analogy is false Killer whale is not a good choice: Leviathan whale tests is d13C, theoretically there will be an enrichment effect, the higher the trophic level, the higher the proportion, but the proportion of leviathan whale is very low, so many people think that he is not an active predator, except for nutrition In addition to latitude, latitude and temperature will also affect the isotope content. The higher the latitude, the lower the isotope content. Chile ’s teeth were unearthed at 27 degrees south. Although the Leviathan whale does not feed on small cetaceans in the same rock formation, it does not mean that it is not an active large predator. On the contrary, it is likely that it is active in high latitudes and preys on larger cetaceans, and This article also points out that Leviathan's teeth have strengthened structures. Based on Leviathan's stronger temporal muscles and larger head than false killer whales, it is unlikely to be limited to some molluscs and fish. A male false killer whale skull length 63cm skull width 36.5cm Width of rostrum at base 21cm Tota body length 525cm Skull length/BL=12% Rostrum width/skull length=33%    Livyatan melvillei MUSM 1676 skull length 294cm skull width 197cm Width of rostrum at base137cm Tota body length ？？1350cm-1750cm Skull length/BL=16.8%-21.7% Rostrum width/skull length=46.6%   |
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Post by 6f5e4d on Feb 10, 2020 23:35:30 GMT 5
The megalodon is the biggest toothed predator of the seas that has ever lived, and much bigger than Livyatan, while also having a stronger bite, so megalodon will win this battle.
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Post by Life on Apr 8, 2020 0:19:34 GMT 5
<trans oldtip="^And did you see me suggesting " newtip="你看到我在暗示">你看到我在暗示</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip=" preying on megalodon the way orcas do with great whites anywhere?" newtip="猎食巨兽就像大白鲨在任何地方一样？">猎食巨兽就像大白鲨在任何地方一样？</trans> <trans oldtip="The area a bite actually impacts is proportional to the length of the tooth row, not the space between them. If an animal has two deep cuts metres in length across its body, it matters precious little if the distance between those two cuts is 1 m or 2 m, the blood loss will be about the same either way." newtip="咬一口的面积实际上与牙齿的长度成正比，而不是与它们之间的间隙成正比。如果一只动物的身长有两米深，那么如果这两条伤口之间的距离是1米或2米，那么两者之间的失血量将大致相同。">咬一口的面积实际上与牙齿的长度成正比，而不是与它们之间的间隙成正比。如果一只动物的身长有两米深，那么如果这两条伤口之间的距离是1米或2米，那么两者之间的失血量将大致相同。</trans> <trans oldtip="But then again, " newtip="但话又说回来，">但话又说回来，</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip="’s teeth are not adapted to cut in the first place." newtip="他的牙齿一开始就不适合切割。">他的牙齿一开始就不适合切割。</trans> <trans oldtip="And have I ever called that into question? No." newtip="我有质疑过吗？没有。">我有质疑过吗？没有。</trans> <trans oldtip="Of course one bite by " newtip="当然一口一口">当然一口一口</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip=" is potentially fatal for megalodon too, if not due to mechanical damage (though surely devastating as well) then due to the immobilizing grip making ram ventilation impossible." newtip="对于巨龙来说也是致命的，如果不是由于机械损坏(虽然也是毁灭性的)，那是因为固定的抓地力使公羊无法通风。">对于巨龙来说也是致命的，如果不是由于机械损坏(虽然也是毁灭性的)，那是因为固定的抓地力使公羊无法通风。</trans> <trans oldtip="You can repeat the calculations and add 7 cm (2%) for shrinkage if you want, that makes very little difference to the implications. On the other hand, as I’ve previously outlined I think the perimeter estimate is pretty liberal, as the shark seems to have an unusually large perimeter for the size of its teeth, but I’m fine with going with this figure for now if that’s something you can agree to use." newtip="你可以重复计算，如果你愿意的话，可以增加7厘米(2%)的收缩，这对影响的影响很小。另一方面，正如我之前所描述的，我认为这个周长估计是相当宽松的，因为鲨鱼的牙齿大小似乎有一个非常大的周长，但我现在可以接受这个数字，如果你同意使用这个数字的话。">你可以重复计算，如果你愿意的话，可以增加7厘米(2%)的收缩，这对影响的影响很小。另一方面，正如我之前所描述的，我认为这个周长估计是相当宽松的，因为鲨鱼的牙齿大小似乎有一个非常大的周长，但我现在可以接受这个数字，如果你同意使用这个数字的话。</trans> <trans oldtip="No good frontal view pictures of " newtip="没有良好的正面图片">没有良好的正面图片</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip="’s skull available, too much perspective. That’s why you guys always use random people in the frame for scaling, after all, resulting in comparisons where the two things being compared differ by several metres in terms of how far they are from the camera in the respective shots." newtip="有头骨，透视图太大了。这就是为什么你们总是在框架中使用随机的人来缩放，毕竟，结果是比较这两种事物的不同之处，在不同的镜头中，它们离摄像机有多远。">有头骨，透视图太大了。这就是为什么你们总是在框架中使用随机的人来缩放，毕竟，结果是比较这两种事物的不同之处，在不同的镜头中，它们离摄像机有多远。</trans> <trans oldtip="That is scaled to the jaw perimeter you estimate for the Yorktown dentition." newtip="这是你估计的约克镇牙列的下颚周长。">这是你估计的约克镇牙列的下颚周长。</trans> <trans oldtip="Actually, while we are at it:" newtip="事实上，当我们在做的时候：">事实上，当我们在做的时候：</trans> <trans oldtip="conservative vs conservative: " newtip="保守与保守：">保守与保守：</trans> <trans oldtip="Livyatan" newtip="利维亚坦">利维亚坦</trans><trans oldtip=" holotype with 197 cm BZW and 294 cm CBL based on " newtip="197 cm BZW和294 cm CBL的全型">197 cm BZW和294 cm CBL的全型</trans> <trans oldtip="Physeter" newtip="菲斯特">菲斯特</trans><trans oldtip=" (14.2 m standard length), meg with 370 m dUJP based on Mollet et al.’s data (14.9 m TL)." newtip="(14.2米标准长度)，根据Mollet等人的数据(14.9mTL)，MEG为370 m dUJP。">(14.2米标准长度)，根据Mollet等人的数据(14.9mTL)，MEG为370 m dUJP。</trans> Hello, my English is not very good, but I also checked the latest Leviathan research and consulted some cetaceans in our country for some clues. My opinion is consistent with you. Leviathan whale analogy is false Killer whale is not a good choice: Leviathan whale tests is d13C, theoretically there will be an enrichment effect, the higher the trophic level, the higher the proportion, but the proportion of leviathan whale is very low, so many people think that he is not an active predator, except for nutrition In addition to latitude, latitude and temperature will also affect the isotope content. The higher the latitude, the lower the isotope content. Chile ’s teeth were unearthed at 27 degrees south. Although the Leviathan whale does not feed on small cetaceans in the same rock formation, it does not mean that it is not an active large predator. On the contrary, it is likely that it is active in high latitudes and preys on larger cetaceans, and This article also points out that Leviathan's teeth have strengthened structures. Based on Leviathan's stronger temporal muscles and larger head than false killer whales, it is unlikely to be limited to some molluscs and fish. A male false killer whale skull length 63cm skull width 36.5cm Width of rostrum at base 21cm Tota body length 525cm Skull length/BL=12% Rostrum width/skull length=33% Livyatan melvillei MUSM 1676 skull length 294cm skull width 197cm Width of rostrum at base137cm Tota body length ？？1350cm-1750cm Skull length/BL=16.8%-21.7% Rostrum width/skull length=46.6% Thanks for your input. Yes, Livyatan-like forms seem to be capable of preying on other cetaceans; jaw structure is huge in which LOWER dentition is suited for trapping a prey item and UPPER dentition is suited for producing PUNCTURE WOUNDS in the (trapped) prey item in order to kill and/or process it. However, I am not sure if this jaw structure enabled efficient predation of LARGE mysticetes of the time; Lambert et al (2010) have not inferred predation on this trophic level either. Livyatan-like forms might have formed PODS (social)? Although, they were large enough to partake in SOLITARY hunting as well. In the case of extant sperm whale species ( Physeter marocephalus), FEMALES are generally social but MALES are into SOLITARY hunting. Following study of dental damage incurred by a Brygmophyseter-type (Scaldicetus sp.): www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02724634.2019.1660987- confirm macrophagous lifestyle for the Brygmophyseter-types and reinforce this proposition for similar forms. NOTE: Livyatan-types were in the Southern hemisphere, and Southern forms ( Livyatan-types) were bigger than the Northern forms ( Brygmophyseter-types) on average. This distribution pattern and morphological difference in macroraptorial sperm whales WARRANT further investigation. --- Carcharocles megalodon featured killing apparatus suited for processing all manner of prey items, and particularly cetaceans with great efficiency. There is preserved evidence of large cetacean vertebrae literally sliced in half, some of the bones reduced to mush or a state beyond recognition, and entire body structures torn asunder. Even some C. megalodon teeth are torn apart in the mix. These occurrences suggest phenomenal jaw power and prey processing potential. Any animal that was on the receiving end of this monster, perished very soon or painfully. |
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 25, 2020 0:13:25 GMT 5
I have to say the recent Meg v. Livyatan discussion over on carnivora is amusing. Grey, any updates on when your study with Leder et al might be fully published? |
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Post by kekistani on Apr 25, 2020 6:37:03 GMT 5
I have to say the recent Meg v. Livyatan discussion over on carnivora is amusing. Grey , any updates on when your study with Leder et al might be fully published? Denis being a dumbass? Who would've thought?!? |
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Post by elosha11 on Apr 27, 2020 8:49:20 GMT 5
I have to say the recent Meg v. Livyatan discussion over on carnivora is amusing. Grey , any updates on when your study with Leder et al might be fully published? Denis being a dumbass? Who would've thought?!? Well yes, but I don't think his counterpart is doing all that well either. Carnivora seems to have relatively little interest in marine animals lately, which leads to bad posting in general on those topics. OTOH, they do have a large number of quality threads for terrestrial conflicts. |
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Post by creature386 on Apr 27, 2020 10:44:42 GMT 5
I think here one of Carnivora's greatest strengths over us does not favor them here. That is, if you already have a large base number of animal enthusiasts and experts, you have it easier to attract like-minded individuals. Most of the Megalodon vs Livyatan people have left Carnivora and migrated here long ago, producing lots of quality content. Thus, anyone interested in these animals is more likely to find WoA than Carnivora via google.
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Post by kekistani on Apr 27, 2020 10:46:26 GMT 5
Denis being a dumbass? Who would've thought?!? Well yes, but I don't think his counterpart is doing all that well either. Carnivora seems to have relatively little interest in marine animals lately, which leads to bad posting in general on those topics. OTOH, they do have a large number of quality threads for terrestrial conflicts. His opponent and me are running circles around him. He had to resort to taking a statement out of context to try and paint me as a "Carnosaur Fanboy"in order to try and gain an upper hand. |
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