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Post by sam1 on Jul 19, 2018 23:56:51 GMT 5
Theropod
The provided figures about sperm whale speed were recorded during bursts that were done while deep dive hunting. The bursts are described in detail.
They were typically relatively short and successive sequences of rapid acceleration and deceleration, in other words, the type of behavior I described in my scenario.
The whale quickly accelerates to a speed that can reach 30km/h ( whether that speed was reached during its longest 400m+ burst or a shorter one is not stated but it is likely that it happened during a shorter one).
Now even if we assume the whale can't detect a megalodon at over 400m distance(it probably would if the meg would approach head on), that still leaves enough time for the whale to accelerate to a significant speed.
Anyway, in this case acceleration and top speed are both at play..and if one animal can carry more speed(force) into the impact, it carries an advantage.
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Post by Grey on Jul 20, 2018 0:07:49 GMT 5
Theropod, yes I had forgotten this correction by Jacoby and always failed to see it. So they rather propose 1.3 m per second ?
Yes I reckon Ferrón proposal is prone to huge error bar, but the results are reasonable anyway so quite useful at this point. Moreover the range of possible speed is quite optimistic. As often, that's the best we have.
For sure, this is only the theoretical speed of a partially mesothermic fish that size. The actual structure of meg caudal fin would give a definitive response. Kent proposes a basking shark-like caudal.
As I said the evidence for fast swimming is anecdotical, not even circumstancial, but quite solid. Various footage and witnesses describe the whale sharks as surprisingly athletic and fast given the opportunity and don't appear sluggish or clumsy comparatively to a cow sperm whalen
I certainly expect a similar-sized meg (assuming the large Rhincodon can indeed reach 34 tonnes) to be more athletic and faster than this.
Regarding the ramming ability, it makes no doubt that Livyatan was far more adapted to deal with frontal impacts than megalodon. I disagree however on the idea that ramming a large object would be dangerous for megalodon. That's a classic example but white sharks have been known ramming against similar-sized boats at high speed, inflicting considerable damages to the vessel and not suffering that much.
Whaling boats have been capsized by ramming balaenopterids, which are probably even less adapted to this than sharks. The account did not describe the balaenopterids being severely wounded afterward.
Physeteroids are simply better to sustain the impact.
A megalodon certainly lost some teeth in such an impact and could damage its snout. But I doubt the chondocranium would be totally inefficient at absorbing the impact of the ramming. Let's remember we are talking about an active predator that weighed probably 50 tonnes and more, suspected to have been an especially brutal hunter comparatively to its modern counterpart. It is unlikely it was poorly adapted to deal with some impact, knowing some of its preys were mobile and while not necessarily as big as the shark, were still multi-tons targets.
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Post by theropod on Jul 20, 2018 0:12:25 GMT 5
sam1 Again, impact force is a non-issue (I think I’ve demonstrated that in my last post), they are not comparable in the ramming-department to begin with. Simply put, if this were exclusively a ramming contest, Livyatan would win flippers down, no matter if it was faster or not. But Livyatan accellerating to top speed and launching itself at the shark over a long distance would be of limited use, as that gives the opponent plenty of time to dodge (yes, Livyatan would presumable detect the shark early on, and the same goes in reverse. even if it didn’t, we’re not assuming an ambush scenario here). An animal that heavy traveling at high speed would never be able to make a sharp turn to follow if the shark evaded its charge, let alone conserve its momentum through said turn. More likely it would have to accellerate over a fairly short distance to use its ram effectively, and likely would not reach its full speed.
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Post by prehistorican on Jul 20, 2018 0:20:50 GMT 5
theropod All I am saying is that a head on confrontation with both animals seems unlikely. And yes I absolutely agree with your above assessment of ramming vulnerabilities. I do not believe a Megalodon will 80-100% of the time faced with Livyatan it willl always win. I just favor it 60/40 due to gigantophagy capabilites of the jaws of Megalodon, a little more numerous teeth and slightly more exposed region of teeth. (Also possibly slightly faster but is that even going to make a different to be honest?). Also not much info on white shark speed. www.elasmo-research.org/education/topics/p_shark_speed.htmIt seems 40kmh seems possible, 56kmh calculated. I have no idea on the speed of fkw, but orca could exceed the white shark. It seems that the size of the animal leads to a higher absolute speed, but not a proportional increase. (Ex:Ferron burst speed increase with species size increase) |
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Post by theropod on Jul 20, 2018 0:27:43 GMT 5
Grey: Ferrón actually writes endothermic, not mesothermic. Sadly we do not know the actual structure of megalodon’s caudal fin, and we may never do. Proposed caudal fin morphology itself will inevitably have to be based on presumed locomotory regime, so that’s sadly of no use as it merely leads to a circular argument (proposed fin shape based on presumed swimming speed–presumed swimming speed confirmed by proposed fin shape). Great white sharks are not 50t in weight, and they have never, as to my knowledge, been recorded seriously injuring anything by ramming it (if they have, please post it). We were talking about an impact that would injure the animal it struck after all. If the impact was dangerous to the whale hit by it, why would it not be dangerous to the shark that struck it as well? Odontocetes are that much more adapted for frontal impacts, there’s little doubt about that. There’s a reason there have been two papers analysing the ramming capacities of Physeter, and there’s a reason why orcas rely on ramming in subduing mysticetes (I’ve already addressed this issue before). We’re not talking about capsizing a boat here, we’re talking about shattering the bow of a whaling ship, or causing severe internal injuries to a large animal. Ramming is something that few animals do to any significant effect, for a simple reason; the force you apply to the thing you ram, you also experience yourself, usually with your skull. So unless your head is specifically adapted to absorb that blow, which we know physeteroid heads are, but shark head are not, you can not use ramming to cause serious injuries to anything else without injuring yourself in the process too. And with the head being the part used for ramming, that’s very risky.
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Post by prehistorican on Jul 20, 2018 0:35:58 GMT 5
theropod: Once again I do agree agree with your assessment. But Livyatan does not exactly have AS much ramming ability of a sperm whale, somewhat noticeably less adapted to that.  Here is a great white report of it ramming a small wooden boat or something, I do not know if it is really all that impressive. But for a shark, I mean it's decent I guess. www.sharkresearchcommittee.com/inanimate.htm |
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Post by theropod on Jul 20, 2018 0:37:48 GMT 5
prehistorican: It may not be as SPECIALIZED for it as Physeter, but it still has all the necessary anatomy. And cetaceans with proportionately much smaller skulls than Livyatan still employ ramming against large prey effectively. Yes, swim speed does seem to somewhat correlate with body length. The estimated speed for the great white may well assuming specimens of similar length to an orca (~6m) though, seeing as how everyone always just assumes the great white is that big. Anyway, I think it’s most reasonable to say cetaceans and lamnids are similarly fast at similar sizes. As for Pseudorca, I don’t know any particular figure either, but they must be very fast, even preying on sailfish and tuna, and they certainly seem to display similar breaching capabilities to great whites (which may be indicative of accelleration). I know the page on elasmo-research, but I’d hoped there was something more substantial somewhere. 40km/h sounds reasonable. As for 56, too bad the author didn’t bother to explain how he calculated that. Well, as unlikely as a head-on confrontation is, that’s the scenario being discussed here. Of course apex predators usually avoid direct confrontation with each other, but we can basically say this on every thread in this section.
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Post by prehistorican on Jul 20, 2018 0:40:48 GMT 5
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Post by theropod on Jul 20, 2018 0:46:08 GMT 5
I’m not saying it doesn’t have some ramming ability (as I explained before, that it could still seriously injure a smaller prey item by ramming it is nothing special), but not to the degree to be a factor in this confrontation.
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Post by prehistorican on Jul 20, 2018 0:47:44 GMT 5
For some reason I am finding this 56kmh speed for white sharks in a lot of different websites for some reason, I don't really know why. I guess it could seem reasonable but it's probably not recorded.
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Post by theropod on Jul 20, 2018 0:53:11 GMT 5
I think the reason is that lots of websites will simply cite the largest figure they can find, without looking at reliability. That, and a general lack of solid data, and people will naturally tend to fill the void with more sensational figures, especially when it’s about great whites.
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Post by prehistorican on Jul 20, 2018 0:57:22 GMT 5
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Post by sam1 on Jul 20, 2018 14:02:10 GMT 5
Gotta admit, that gave me a good laugh. Teeth, blood and gore obsessed meg fanboy at its best. You delivered gloriously. Utter fantasy BS with shark's reactions that make no sense. Just before the clash, it uses its superior turning ratio to dive underneath the whale?! 😅 And then while being underneath, it somehow manages to rip a huge chunk of flesh from a *stunned* whale that's above him!! 😄 How? Did he rolled up, whale style?!? And the whale is stunned from what? Damn I'm literally laughing again while typing this nonsense. *Ted. We don't know how fast Meg and Livy were, that's why I stated that my scenario is a hypothetical one. Just in order to illustrate to Theropod that greater speed is all but irrelevant. Yours did too. Honestly that wasn't even supposed to be realistic whatsoever as much as your scenario. That is why I named it "Sam1 scenario" since it seems to be just as much as reliable as your infallibly incorrect assume that of the scenario. How? What? Same questions go FOR YOUR SCENARIO AS WELL. I COPIED YOUR STYLE AND INNACURACY. Dear god the irony you Livyatan fanboys, just need a Livyatan monster machine. You stupid piece of scenario, in which two animals would most likely not confront each other head on for the sake of trying to kill each other is utter fanboyish at its finest. Your nonsense is pretty much your scenario and my scenario. The thing is, I am not serious about my satirical scenario where you take it as literal. Quite amazing indeed. The thing you failed to realize, even while clearly stated, is that my scenario was hypothetical, under the following assumptions: - the whale having greater top speed - the adversaries engage on equal terms (head to head, no ambush, fully aware of each other) - the adversaries are fully intent on battling each other. It doesn't at all represent how I imagine the typical interactions between those two. In fact I agree with you that they yould typically keep away from each other. But the whole premise of the "vs" thing is to discuss who would prevail in a hypothetical fight. And while probably extremely rare, such battles must've happened from time to time. |
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Post by sam1 on Jul 20, 2018 14:14:37 GMT 5
theropod: Once again I do agree agree with your assessment. But Livyatan does not exactly have AS much ramming ability of a sperm whale, somewhat noticeably less adapted to that. That is an extremely proportioned sperm whale depiction though. Its head is more than one third of the total length. Also, the depiction of Livyatan is stripped off of any extra tissue at the rostrum and cranium..compare that to the sperm whale's respective details and tell me how likely/realistic the Livyatan's drawing is. It's just invalid. Finally, Livyatan's skull and jaws were much more robustly built. It had a smaller junk and spermaceti organ, but its entire skull was obviously more durable. |
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Post by prehistorican on Jul 20, 2018 15:35:24 GMT 5
Do modern odontocetes do depth charges like sharks? I wouldn’t be all that surprised if the shark did an attack like that on the Livyatan. I doubt the extreme agility compared to sharks or speed as seen with bottlenose dolphins and white sharks. Especially claims that the whale had some extreme agility that it could turn to face its attacker no matter what angle it is being attacked storm. Also the fwk and white shark comparison. This is what one aquarium website said “Researchers believe that false killer whales can grow to 57.5 years of age for males and 62.5 years for females. This is based on counting the rings on the teeth of dead animals. They have been observed reaching speeds of 5.5-11 kilometres/hour (3.4-6.8 miles/hour) and up to 18 km/hour (11 m/hour)”. White Sharks have been observed to go to 40kmh, but just in case I think it is extremely possible for fkw to exceed 30kmh.
Then why would you pick an unlikely scenario, in where there is no proof of Livyatan being faster than a Megalodon? And somehow the Megalodon wanted to smash its skull with another creature? Thinking that whales INTENTIONALLY roll over their bodies to protect their vurnerable areas from attack? This based off of blind spots in the dolphin in which tiger sharks attack, not some amazing life saving maneuver.
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