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Post by elosha11 on Oct 2, 2019 19:47:56 GMT 5
all, there is certainly arguments on either side, but I would suggest the size of the holotype and the other comparable (and smaller) Livytan sp. teeth discovered in other parts of the world suggests the holotype was 13.0 to 17.5 meters long, as originally indicated. And the holotype is probably somewhere between that range, rather than the absolute max size. So somewhere around 15 meters. Arguments about Megalodon vary, probably the plurality of researchers settle at around 18 meters/60 feet. A recent paper by Shimada suggests only 14-15 meters and that such occurrences were rare but his methodology using only crown heights and probably not the largest teeth either suggest a possibly outdated and less credible method. Further, and hopefully soon published studies based on associated dentition and jaw perimeter (which may better track the animal's actual proportions) may suggest Megalodon could exceed 18 meters. As Grey recently posted in the Livytan profile thread, there may even be isotopic evidence from Livyatan teeth (albeit obviously limited) that might (repeat MIGHT) suggest Livytan was less big game predator than we imagine and may have fed at a lower trophic level than Megalodon, something akin to great whites v. false killer whales. Of course, all such possibilities are subject to change as we discover more about both species. But I still now, cautiously, would favor a large Megalodon against a large Livytan based on what we know and can infer, and also based on what we know of large predatory sharks interactions with similar sized cetaceans, including FKW and pilot whales, but obviously excluding the far larger orca. Grey, although the orca pod v. Livyatan/Megalodon might be better for a different interspecific conflict thread, can you reference where small pods of transients killed pygmy blue whales and the size of the whale in question. I know there was recent video of what I recall was a fairly large pod of around 30 killing what I thought was juvenile blue whale of some kind, of around 14-15 meters. sam1 may have posted that in some thread here. I can't recall where. And there's the 18 meter juvenile blue whale gravely injured and/or killed by a large pod. But I don't recall a small pod doing something like this. That's not to say they couldn't and don't. If they are able to catch and tire such a prey item, they could ram it and bite it with probably low risk. Other than their size and possible convulsive flailing, which might potentially injure an orca, the whale has no weapons, fighting/predatory instincts, or maneuverability to do much. That's much different than smaller (but still huge) predatory whale or shark in Livy/Meg. This I will say. While I still believe Meg and Livy might well intimidate and even possibly kill members of a "small" orca pod, like around 8 members, the huge superpods would likely be too much. They could attack in swarms and waves, biting and ramming from all directions in groups of 6 or 8, while the shark/whale gradually tires and weakens, and while 15-20 orcas rest and stay below the surface to keep the animal from escaping. I still think it would be dangerous and the shark or whale might very well kill one or several orcas. So for that reason they might be avoided like bull sperm whales. But if they were absolutely determined to attack (like if they were starving) a superpod of 30-60 would overwhelm any other animal, even Meg and Livyatan.
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all
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Post by all on Oct 2, 2019 20:05:48 GMT 5
Based on Wikipedia the most recent measurement of Megaladon's size was up to 18 meters and up to 59 metric tons. But their estimates might be slightly behind. However if megaladon was significantly above that weight. Then this is a mismatch.
I assumed the weight of about equal for both of them. At equal weight only real edge that Megaladon has is the fact that it doesn't need to surface. Livyatan's skull is wide at zygomatic arch with powerful temporal muscles. The jaws are short which further increases their strength. And he has huge interlocking teeth. At equal weights I think its 50/50
If megaladon is significantly larger than livyatan however. Megaladon obviously wins. Since at equal weights they are about the same.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 2, 2019 20:55:14 GMT 5
although the orca pod v. Livyatan/Megalodon might be better for a different interspecific conflict thread Not to nitpick but don't we already have each one of those? |
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Post by elosha11 on Oct 2, 2019 21:04:45 GMT 5
^Probably. I didn't look it up. Could copy the quotes of Grey and my comments to such threads to pick it up there.
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Post by Grey on Oct 2, 2019 21:20:26 GMT 5
in this particular battle i go 50/50 Megalodon has 7.1 inch teeth with very fine serration. Livyatan's teeth are not serrated but they are over 14 inches. He has very powerful temporal muscles. short robust jaws. which means great bite force. probably greater than megaladon's. but Megaladons' serrated teeth would mean that his bite force on the blade tip would make up for that. Only 1/3 of Livyatan teeth was exposed, while 2/3 for meg. It is premature to argue if Livyatan had a more powerful bite. Usually one would expect a shark to bite with less force than a marine mammam with deep roots. But megalodon itself had much more robust roots than any modern shark, so possibly had a more powerful bite force than expected. Meg and Parotodus teeth show compression fractures, the tip of the tooth was reduced to pouder, indicating devastating bite force. No modern sharks teeth show this kind of damages, which is well recorded among hyenas. At the end of the day, the shark had unlimited teeth, no matter how damaged they were. The shark maybe had the most voluminous bite. How megalodon and Livyatan would behave in fight and predation is different and there is no indication of how Livyatan hunted. It actual diet is not clear either. They are in a similar ball park but 17.5 m is an upper estimate for the Livyatan holotype, so not a definitive size for the specimen. While there may have been larger individuals, there is no material yet as evidence. While 18 m for megalodon is probably (contra Shimada 2019) not a maximum size. If the size of the largest teeth and especially dentitions are indicative of anything, the larger sharks probably reached or exceeded 20 m. Or at least, as I like to say, they had the smile that would fit in a 20 m shark. Colder water will have maybe no impact at qll as latest research suggests megalodon was 10-15 degrés warmer than white sharks and as warm as modern whales, hence perhaps a true warm-blooded fish. Anyway, none of them lived in really cold regions, the Neogene seas were not really cold. Elosha, I can't link right now but there are several revents observations easily to find recording spectacular orcas vs blue whales interractions. I recall whales in the 15-20 m range were killed. A pod of transients is something I may have underestimated in the past. |
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all
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Post by all on Oct 2, 2019 22:14:58 GMT 5
I do believe that when you compare the bite force at the blade tip because of megaladon's sharper teeth and Livyatan's wide zygomatic arch. ( And his teeth were also well rooted just like those of the megaladon.) it would be relatively equal at the end. The Livyatan's teeth interlock. There fore even if less teeth were exposed their bite is just as secure and with size of the teeth destructive.
Megaladon does'n need to surface that is his edge.
In my opinion if the weights are the same its about 50/50
If Megaladon's weight is higher he wins.
As i stated before.
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Post by Grey on Oct 2, 2019 22:52:35 GMT 5
I tend to more or less agree on a conservative approach.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 3, 2019 2:32:34 GMT 5
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Post by sam1 on Oct 4, 2019 22:14:14 GMT 5
all , there is certainly arguments on either side, but I would suggest the size of the holotype and the other comparable (and smaller) Livytan sp. teeth discovered in other parts of the world suggests the holotype was 13.0 to 17.5 meters long, as originally indicated. And the holotype is probably somewhere between that range, rather than the absolute max size. So somewhere around 15 meters. Arguments about Megalodon vary, probably the plurality of researchers settle at around 18 meters/60 feet. A recent paper by Shimada suggests only 14-15 meters and that such occurrences were rare but his methodology using only crown heights and probably not the largest teeth either suggest a possibly outdated and less credible method. Further, and hopefully soon published studies based on associated dentition and jaw perimeter (which may better track the animal's actual proportions) may suggest Megalodon could exceed 18 meters. As Grey recently posted in the Livytan profile thread, there may even be isotopic evidence from Livyatan teeth (albeit obviously limited) that might (repeat MIGHT) suggest Livytan was less big game predator than we imagine and may have fed at a lower trophic level than Megalodon, something akin to great whites v. false killer whales. Of course, all such possibilities are subject to change as we discover more about both species. But I still now, cautiously, would favor a large Megalodon against a large Livytan based on what we know and can infer, and also based on what we know of large predatory sharks interactions with similar sized cetaceans, including FKW and pilot whales, but obviously excluding the far larger orca. Grey , although the orca pod v. Livyatan/Megalodon might be better for a different interspecific conflict thread, can you reference where small pods of transients killed pygmy blue whales and the size of the whale in question. I know there was recent video of what I recall was a fairly large pod of around 30 killing what I thought was juvenile blue whale of some kind, of around 14-15 meters. sam1 may have posted that in some thread here. I can't recall where. And there's the 18 meter juvenile blue whale gravely injured and/or killed by a large pod. But I don't recall a small pod doing something like this. That's not to say they couldn't and don't. If they are able to catch and tire such a prey item, they could ram it and bite it with probably low risk. Other than their size and possible convulsive flailing, which might potentially injure an orca, the whale has no weapons, fighting/predatory instincts, or maneuverability to do much. That's much different than smaller (but still huge) predatory whale or shark in Livy/Meg. This I will say. While I still believe Meg and Livy might well intimidate and even possibly kill members of a "small" orca pod, like around 8 members, the huge superpods would likely be too much. They could attack in swarms and waves, biting and ramming from all directions in groups of 6 or 8, while the shark/whale gradually tires and weakens, and while 15-20 orcas rest and stay below the surface to keep the animal from escaping. I still think it would be dangerous and the shark or whale might very well kill one or several orcas. So for that reason they might be avoided like bull sperm whales. But if they were absolutely determined to attack (like if they were starving) a superpod of 30-60 would overwhelm any other animal, even Meg and Livyatan. I don't have anything to add on the very subject, my arguments are still as presented in the thread..but I'll reiterate that I'm certain that a pod of orcas, no matter how big, ain't gonna kill a healthy megalodon simply because that shark was able to escape out of their reach. They could not do much to prevent it from diving down into the depths. Deterring, harassing and dominating the shark is an entirely different game though, and something a pod of orcas would probably be well capable of doing. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 4, 2019 23:13:54 GMT 5
^I second that.
Killer whales, from what I have seen, don't seem to be able to effectively incapacitate big animals quickly
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Post by Grey on Oct 5, 2019 3:13:01 GMT 5
Dangerously tourmenting a 18 m meg is reasonable at least for a large pod of transients. Some of them represent maybe 70 tonnes of intelligent predatory combined force after all.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 5, 2019 4:21:25 GMT 5
Do killer whale pods really get that big? I thought they had 8-10 members at the most
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Post by Grey on Oct 5, 2019 4:32:32 GMT 5
Briggs orcas pods sometimes go up to 30 members. If you give an average of 4 tonnes per dolphin, you get my point.
This is virtually a gigantic macropredator.
Pods that large are not common but even half a dozen individuals seem able to tackle a good-sized whale.
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Post by theropod on Oct 5, 2019 18:00:59 GMT 5
dinosauria101 Pods involved in attacking large whales can be quite large (e.g. the pod of ~30 orcas involved in the famous 1977 case of the attack on a subadult blue whale), although their normal group sizes tend to be smaller. Read Jefferson et al. 1991: Jefferson, T.A., Stacey, P.J. and Baird, R.W. 1991. A review of killer whale interactions with other marine mammals: Predation to co-existence. Mammal review 21 (4): 151–180. At any rate, nothing is keeping orcas from forming very large pods if they have a reason to do so.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 5, 2019 18:09:04 GMT 5
dinosauria101 Pods involved in attacking large whales can be quite large (e.g. the pod of ~30 orcas involved in the famous 1977 case of the attack on a subadult blue whale) Oh yeah, THAT one. I remember it. Wasn't that the account that led to the 2013 8 killer whales vs Livyatan incident? |
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