Wolf/Cougar vs Hyena/leopard interactions

[Runic]

Finally decided to pull my weight more on this forum and post something of scientific value to start or initiate a further discussion. Below is my synopsis with evidence on cougar and wolf interactions vs hyena and leopard interactions because some people seem to assume wolves fare much worse against cougar than hyena do to leopard when in reality, it's either close or actually thev reverse.
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Lately I've been reading about both animal duos interactions and was gonna make a thread like this down the line but I've decided now would be the time. What made me go ahead and make this thread is because for some reason people believe Hyena do better against leopard than wolves do to Cougar. So I made this thread to discuss and elaborate on why people think this. Do note this is not a "vs" thread, so if you're coming in this thread to say a wolf would lose to a hyena or vice versa (same with the cats) I'd ask that you kindly get the swear word on. This ain't the place for that type of discussion.

Now I'd like to start off by quoting what an anonymous poster recently said (take no offense im not attacking you)

The analogy that's bound to be bought up here is the cougar vs wolf argument, which is a clear cut fight with the odds in the felids favor.

However, I feel that the interactions between Grey wolves and cougars is not an ideal representative of this respective matchup, I think hyena vs leopard is more applicable, owing to the morphology of Canis Dirus, being more powerfully built and robust than lupus, Taylor and Francis asserting that the largest recorded examples of C. lupus would be representative of average size of C.dirus, with the uppermost examples 25% larger than the biggest examples of C'Lupus recorded today. So, a dire wolf of equal weight to a comparable grey wolf would be more robust and massive, much like the comparison between Lupus and Crocuta.

And as I'm sure were all aware, once we begin to analyse the interactions between leopards and Spotted hyenas, the outcome becomes much less one sided than what we would see in pantherine vs canid match ups of the same weight division. 

^ this simply is not true. The interactions between wolves and cougar is not at all blatantly one sided. In fact the circumstances are on par if not superior to what you see with leopard and hyena. I'd like to also note this is kinda impressive seeing as how the size difference between wolves and cougar is bigger than that between leopard and hyena.

Now for the real part, if we look at this thread below on wolves and cougar interactions we will notice several things. I shall summarize if no one will read the thread,
carnivoraforum.com/topic/9333980/1/

1 - Cougar do not regularly if at all kill male wolves of good size. It's mostly female and sub adult HOWEVER young male wolves have been killed before. I think it's one account or so. I see nothing significant to be put in the cats favor with that. Also note that there's a instance of a lone wolf (unspecified) killing an adult female cougar (unspecified but it still is impressive) and upon inspection of pack killed cougar and reading the expert analysis they note that in every case it was one final bite to the skull or throat that kills the cat. This means that single wolves out the packs have been documented of having been in the act of killing cougar. <- do note the outline of this statement before you go saying something towards me about saying that.

2 - Just like with hyena there have been record instances of lone wolf hanging around cougar kills by themselves. In one instance the wolf was cautious yes but in another the wolf was actively looking for the cat. Then theres this lone wolf taking a cougar kill (cats in the background)

"Look carefully for the mountain lion in the background, pushed off its kill by a large wolf caught on remote camera. Photograph courtesy Teton Cougar Project/Panthera"

This means wolves, especially larger males are not at all scared of cougar or being alone in cougar territory. This is of course just my opinion based off the above instances. It seems that cougar also avoid areas with wolves for the most part as well.

3 - When wolf packs encounter a cougar of any gender or size, the cat is always the loser. In the thread it even says that pairs of wolves chase of cougar from kills. But when a fight breaks out the wolves either kill the cat or the cat escapes. Theres no instances of cougar repelling wolf packs attacking them from my knowledge. This shows the tenacity and formidability and danger even a small pack of wolves pose to a cougar, a cat that is on average bigger than a leopard and wolf by a decent amount (20-30lbs or more)

From this it actually seems as though cougar have a healthy respect for sizable male wolves (not saying they cannot kill one if it attacked them however im also not saying a large male wolf cannot kill a cougar tom attacking it either.) seeing as how there are very few (about 2) accounts of cougar killings of (young and not full sized) male wolves be it dispersal or even during pack battles killing one of the wolves before going down.

Now we move onto hyena. If you read the link below you should see something that will be a shocker, however seeing as how most view me as biased towards wolves ( I can see how some may come to that conclusion) I will not say much on these interactions but instead ask that either Vita, 221extra or someone else interested more in hyena elaborate on these
carnivoraforum.com/topic/9540991/1/

Now what I would like to call out however is that the accounts of leopard killings of hyena are more straightforward than cougar killings of wolves. Note how even one leopard was known as a hyena specialist. But what really makes me think is thst despite hyena and leopard being closer in size to each other than wolves and cougar, unlike the latter two which when pack meets cat the cat is almost always killed or retreats, leopard however have been documented repelling hyena packs on multiple occasions and even wounding a bunch of them repeatedly. Maybe because leopard are more confident against hyena than cougar are wolves. I don't know. Makes you wonder what would happen if a wolf pack ran into a leopard over a kill. Would the wolves simply kill the cat like they do every time they meet a lone cougar out in the open (who once again is larger than a leopard and wolf)? Or would the leopard repel the wolves ? I'd also like to note I have not heard of lone hyena killing male leopard just like I haven't so far seen lone wolf killing male cougar. In fact I haven't seen hyena packs killing male leopard either. Anyone care to explain?

But my main point is however, not aiming this at anyone in particular. But hyena don't seem to have a better track record against leopard than wolves do to cougar. In fact the interaction seem on par or the wolves actually fair better.

This is just my opening synopsis, thoughts?

[Vodmeister]

I think that overall, Cougars beat Wolves and Leopards beat Hyenas.

It is by no means a mismatch or a total blowout like the infamous Gorilla vs Grizzly match-up, but all things considered Pumas/Leopards have a modest edge over Wolves/Hyenas IMO. Something like 70/30.

I've also not really seen any evidence to suggest that Hyenas do any better against Leopards than Wolves do against Cougars.

[Runic]

I made this thread because I got tired of people over there saying hyena have a better track record.

Stuff gets annoying when people are that dense. But only slightly.

[malikc6]

Jan 30, 2015 9:03:10 GMT 5 Vodmeister said:

I think that overall, Cougars beat Wolves and Leopards beat Hyenas.

It is by no means a mismatch or a total blowout like the infamous Gorilla vs Grizzly match-up, but all things considered Pumas/Leopards have a modest edge over Wolves/Hyenas IMO. Something like 70/30.

I've also not really seen any evidence to suggest that Hyenas do any better against Leopards than Wolves do against Cougars.

You know, I never understood why that was even a debate. Grizzly vs Gorilla. A standard jaguar would give a gorilla some trouble (I still think the gorilla would come out slightly more on top if we're talking a 400 lb gorilla), and leopards can be very dangerous opponents, and neither cat can kill a grizzly bear head on under most circumstances, so what makes people think that a gorilla could fight a grizzly bear? Even a black bear would probably be too much if at the same weight or more. 

Even if by some insane means, the gorilla were to be stronger than the grizzly (which it is not), the bear would still have a higher chance simply BECAUSE THE BEAR IS MADE TO KILL! CLAWS, , LOADS OF STRENGTH, AND BONE CRUSHING JAWS! The gorilla's strength would not mean too much if it's forearm, hand, or shoulder was crushed by a single bite from the bear. Sure gorilla's have teeth of their own, but a predator would know how to use them better, and that would go to the bear.


 

[malikc6]

For a long time, I thought that a cougar could kill a wolf without too much of an issue due to it's claws and agility. But in my defense, this is a common error. Now I still do think at parity, the cougar would defeat the wolf, but if the wolf is heavier by 20 lbs or more, I think the wolf would win, but more likely than not, the cougar would back down and run. Even back then, I thought the wolf's weight advantage wouldn't help out too much other than grappling and pinning the cougar down, because the cougar could slash at the wolf's belly with it's back legs, or if they were fighting head on, the cougar could grab the wolf's head and go in for a neck bite. But wolves do NOT fight like most dogs do. The way I've seen them fight, it seems like they're actually trying to analyze and focus on a specific area. Dogs tend to just rush in and bite anything there. Wolves will take their time to attack, and often target the eyes and extremities to disable their opponent. I would imagine their styles of fighting would be harder against an animal with an extra weapon and added more agility, but if wolves have killed cougars before head on, obviously those claws aren't as effective as many posters and I once.

I have much greater respect for the wolf than ever really.

[LeopJag]

I guess that many tend to believe that hyenas have a better track record against leopards than wolves do against cougars is because of the hyena's reputation (at least the spotted species) of being very physically durable and difficult to kill. also,, people have seen alot more footage of hyenas repelling leopards thanks to African docs... some idiots also seem to think of the leopard being a more cowardly cat than cougar.

that's the impression i get