Leopard vs. Dire Wolf

[animallover]

Thanks

Yes, I did take part of other animal related forums in the past. I will certainly send you a private message.

Thanks for the chart. It clears a lot of misconceptions. By the way, if you happen to have similar charts for other big cats (lions, tigers, jaguars) and/or other animals, please share it with me.

Also, I know the wolf has a more robust body, but I am talking about the forelimbs specifically (the forelimbs are most important for striking and grappling). Do you think the wolf has more robust forelimbs? Generally speaking, felines tend to have more robust forelimbs - even with a weight disadvantage.

IMHO, I think the fight can go down in one of two ways:

1) The wolf manages to pin the leopard using it's heavy torso and chest, killing it with a bite to the neck. It won't be easy as cats are very agile and hard to pin - but it is indeed a possibility.

2) The leopard out grapples the wolf and either kills it with a swift bite to the neck or clubs it to death.

This is probably one of the closest animal vs animal match ups I have come across.

[dinosauria101]

animallover

You got it; any charts I find I will post.
As for the fight?
1: I believe limb robusticity of these 2 should be comparable; dire wolves' large mass in small area increases the limb solids.
2: What do you mean by clubbed to death? I am not aware of any felid trying something like that on a similar sized or larger animal

In the end though, yeah it's a very close fight. I think this is more about introducing facts to the other animal's supporters; more than understandable to slightly favor either here.

By the way, feel free to look in the directory for matchups if you want them. It gets updated frequently and there are a lot in it.

[animallover]

Cool.


1. Makes sense. I would conclude (I could be wrong though) that both animals would have similar grappling ability, but the leopard would have better striking ability - simply because cats seem to have limbs better designed for a "throwing/hitting" action.

2. By "club to death" I mean striking to death - killing by striking. Lions have been known to strike other lions to death during combat, for example. Even tigers use a mixture of striking and grappling while fighting to. Fun fact: Relative to their body mass, leopards have limbs as robust as tigers (again, relative to body weight) - so I think the leopard could indeed deal out a good amount damage with paw swipes.

I totally agree with you. Unlike other forums where people defend their favorite animals to death, it makes more sense to use common sense and logic - by stating facts.

Certainly, will do. I already saw the directory and there seems to be many interesting match ups.

[dinosauria101]

animallover

Yeah good point! Just using logic is way better than getting angry at other over who wins in a fight

By the way, I made a size chart

[animallover]

Yep, that is very true.

Are you sure that size comparison is accurate? Don't get me wrong, I know the Dire wolf is indeed larger and more powerful, but I am kind of surprised to see the leopard is that much smaller.

[dinosauria101]

I just scaled them to 80 and 65 cm SH each.
As far as I am aware that is each of their mean

[jhg]

Close match. I’ll just pick my favorite of the two; House Stark!

[dinosauria101]

^Good pun there!
Also good pick; I agree

[all]

You have a good point about strength of leopards upper body. But i still go with dire wolf. 

Yes leopard is very powerful and pound per pound it might be even little bit stronger than the lion. And no modern canine would have realistic chance against the leopard if fight would be to the death.  However dire wolf is a different story. 

Most measure leopard's bite force to be 300-310 pounds. Personally I think its little more than that. For the sake of argument lets consider 350-400. Dire wolf has bite force of 900 pounds. That is more than double. Leopards canines are 2 inches long, dire wolf's are 2.5 inches. Now that is not that much of the difference. Non the less this extra half an inch could mean the difference between casing significant but limited damage vs instant kill shot. Leopards canines are probably little bid denser than those of the domestic dog. But probably no more than those of a modern wolf. Dire wolf's are much denser than that. Together with the bite force its like having much larger caliber gun with much stronger propellant. In addition extra half an inch means more of already much stronger energy is focused on organs that are both vital and more  susceptible to damage. 

Largest recorded leopard was 96 kg. The largest dire wolf can be 110 kg. That does not seem like a lot of difference but in a dog fight for example with all things being equal small difference in weight can make significant impact. 

Leopards'  advantage is its speed and agility plus its claws which can be used at the distance. This is a very good combination of assets that complement each other well. However when having more speed and agility while facing stronger opponent one needs to control geography and range of the fight very well and tire the adversary out. But dire wolf might be little bit slower than the leopard but has as good if not better stamina. 

In an M.M.A. fight range makes lots of difference. But while humans ability to intercept the punch in a way of a grab is unlikely and its usually better to simply deflect punches energy then try for a grab or simply punch back. Human grip is not strong enough and not secure enough to hold on tightly besides even if one gets hold of a wrist and has no control of the rest of the opponent its still not much better position. In case of dire wolf and leopard things would be different. If dire wolf grabs the hold of leopard's wrist it can break it with one bite. If it gets close enough to the leopard and avoids claws all together it has an advantage. 

It takes entire pack of dire wolves to bring down Bison antiquus. But it also takes entire pride of lions to bring down cape buffalo. Bison antiquus is more than 60% larger than cape buffalo. So to accomplish such task dire wolves have to be powerful.

Overall they are both powerful predators and leopard would put up one hell of a fight. But dire wolf would in my opinion win in the end.

[dinosauria101]

all

Welcome to the forum!
Anyhow, good analogy! I most definitely agree robusticity, durability, stamina, and bite overtake the leopard's advantages

[orcalover]

Sept 3, 2019 22:55:52 GMT 5 animallover said:

Yep, that is very true.

Are you sure that size comparison is accurate? Don't get me wrong, I know the Dire wolf is indeed larger and more powerful, but I am kind of surprised to see the leopard is that much smaller.

The dire wolf is larger, but I would definitely not say  more powerful. Not by a longshot. Definitely not in the forelimbs. The teeth, for sure, but a lot of posters on here are acting as if leopards do not handle stronger biters than themselves, like the spotted hyena, pretty regularly. Even with the size disadvantage, a male leopard has got this in the big against a bigger alpha male dire wolf just due to greater agility, reflexes, grappling ability, and speed.

Indeed, the bite force, stamina, and durability will pose a serious problem for him, but again, the leopard can handle this against a matriarch spotted hyena, so he's not going to suddenly be helpless against an alpha male dire wolf.

Given that leopards can tackle, and snap the necks of, elands and drag them up trees shows how much ass they can haul. The leopard's going to be a pain in the ass to hit for the dire wolf, and it's not like one bite is going to end the fight for the leopard. He can tackle and knock down the dire wolf on his back, at which point the leopard has a much greater variety of options toward victory to work with. The leopard can close the dire wolf's mouth while strangling and suffocating the dire wolf with his superior grappling.

Also, it's not like the leopard's bite is useless. Like other big cats, the leopard still goes for the skull and can deliver a fatal killing bite to the dire wolf's jugular even if his own bite force is weaker; the dire wolf's durability is not immune to the leopard's bite.

I will say, tho, that it needs to be an African or Persian leopard, because a snow or Amur leopard would be way too small, even male against male, and in that case, the dire wolf would win. A male African or Persian leopard, however, should emerge victorious 6/10 times against an alpha male dire wolf. The leopard can handle the spotted hyena, so it's not like the bite force, stamina, or durability is going to be a deciding factor.

And hyenas have insane durability, too. Those creatures can take beatings from male lions and still live to tell the story. Does that make hyenas superior to lions? Hell no. Given how exhausting and taxing it is for a leopard to kill a hyena, tho, I will not say that this is an easy fight. But the dire wolf is not winning the majority here.

[orcalover]

Sept 18, 2019 17:33:30 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

all

Welcome to the forum!
Anyhow, good analogy! I most definitely agree robusticity, durability, stamina, and bite overtake the leopard's advantages

Robusticity only very slightly in the skull. In the actual build of the two outside the skull, the leopard's got much more muscle in its body. And no, durability, stamina, and bite do not overtake the leopard's advantage. Male adult leopards are capable of (albeit after a lot of effort and difficulty) overpowering and killing matriarch spotted hyenas individually, who hold all these same advantages over the leopard. The leopard's a hell of a lot more agile, not to mention faster and reflexive, than the male dire wolf is.

No dire wolf held any serious kind of size advantage over the African or Persian leopard enough to tilt the fight a majority in his favor. African leopards especially deal with hyenas, whose nasty bite, durability, and stamina are just as problematic for the leopard as the dire wolf's are. The hyena is also insanely muscularly built, in not only the skull, but also its general muscle mass. Given how difficult it is for even a lion to kill a hyena, it shows how tough the creature is.

Still, male leopards can and have killed adult female spotted hyenas, albeit with a hell of a lot difficulty. The dire wolf's advantages are nothing with which the leopard hasn't dealt and come out victorious in the past, and the same way that he does against a grown top-ranked female spotted hyena, an adult male leopard will defeat an alpha male dire wolf after a good, tough battle.

He'll be panting and possibly in pain after the battle, but he will still win. His agility, balance, reflexes, speed, and grappling ability will overcome the dire wolf's stamina, skull size, bite force, and durability. The leopard's own wrestling ability is insanely strong. The bite is just the final part of how a leopard takes down his opponents; he uses his grappling and reflexes to attack, knock down, and close the mouth of his opponents, wears the opponents down with wrestling and grappling, and then delivers a killing bite.

Even with the dire wolf's durability, it won't give him immunity to the leopard's killing skull bite. Even a matriarch spotted hyena does not have such durability, and her robusticity (in not only the skull, but also muscular diaphragm) is at least equal to the alpha male dire wolf's. The leopard's style is not to just immediately go for the killing bite (which obviously won't be enough to beat the dire wolf), but to grapple first and then knock down the dire wolf. And the leopard's arms are strong enough to shut the dire wolf's mouth after he's knocked on his back and unable to effectively grapple and move.

If we're using any subspecies smaller than an African or Persian (like snow or Amur) leopard, then I'd agree with you that the leopard loses. However, either of those two subspecies is enough to overcome an adult female (even matriarch) spotted hyena individually, so he will also overcome an alpha male dire wolf, regardless of how difficult it is. It won't be an easy fight, but the leopard will emerge the victor, even if with some injuries, difficulties, or just serious exhaustion from all the fighting.

Now, a female leopard, I would agree would lose to a grown male dire wolf, but would be able to handle a female dire wolf.

I'm surprised by how many people underestimate the leopard on here. Literally none of the dire wolf's advantages are unfamiliar or insurmountable for the leopard; he deals with those with spotted hyenas. And even if the spotted hyenas are little less agile than dire wolves, both (spotted hyenas and dire wolves) are leagues below the leopard in agility at all, and much closer to each other in agility than either is to the leopard.

Further, whatever the spotted hyena lacks in agility to the dire wolf (which is not that much to begin with), she makes up for in muscular robusticity, given that she has such a thick body and neck that not even a male lion (sometimes even two) can instantly kill. The sheer amount of difficulty thru which even a lion has to go to kill a spotted hyena compensates for any minor agility disadvantage that the spotted hyena suffers against a dire wolf.

So, the hyena is at least as tough as an opponent for a leopard, but given that a leopard overcomes that, he will not be unable to overcome the dire wolf. It'll be a very tough battle for sure, especially with a size disadvantage at average weights, but a male African or Persian leopard shreds and defeats an alpha male dire wolf 6/10 times. He'll be exhausted and tired out by the end, but the leopard holds way too many advantages, even with the size disadvantage.

[orcalover]

Sept 18, 2019 17:22:46 GMT 5 all said:

You have a good point about strength of leopards upper body. But i still go with dire wolf. 

Yes leopard is very powerful and pound per pound it might be even little bit stronger than the lion. And no modern canine would have realistic chance against the leopard if fight would be to the death.  However dire wolf is a different story. 

Most measure leopard's bite force to be 300-310 pounds. Personally I think its little more than that. For the sake of argument lets consider 350-400. Dire wolf has bite force of 900 pounds. That is more than double. Leopards canines are 2 inches long, dire wolf's are 2.5 inches. Now that is not that much of the difference. Non the less this extra half an inch could mean the difference between casing significant but limited damage vs instant kill shot. Leopards canines are probably little bid denser than those of the domestic dog. But probably no more than those of a modern wolf. Dire wolf's are much denser than that. Together with the bite force its like having much larger caliber gun with much stronger propellant. In addition extra half an inch means more of already much stronger energy is focused on organs that are both vital and more  susceptible to damage. 

Largest recorded leopard was 96 kg. The largest dire wolf can be 110 kg. That does not seem like a lot of difference but in a dog fight for example with all things being equal small difference in weight can make significant impact. 

Leopards'  advantage is its speed and agility plus its claws which can be used at the distance. This is a very good combination of assets that complement each other well. However when having more speed and agility while facing stronger opponent one needs to control geography and range of the fight very well and tire the adversary out. But dire wolf might be little bit slower than the leopard but has as good if not better stamina. 

In an M.M.A. fight range makes lots of difference. But while humans ability to intercept the punch in a way of a grab is unlikely and its usually better to simply deflect punches energy then try for a grab or simply punch back. Human grip is not strong enough and not secure enough to hold on tightly besides even if one gets hold of a wrist and has no control of the rest of the opponent its still not much better position. In case of dire wolf and leopard things would be different. If dire wolf grabs the hold of leopard's wrist it can break it with one bite. If it gets close enough to the leopard and avoids claws all together it has an advantage. 

It takes entire pack of dire wolves to bring down Bison antiquus. But it also takes entire pride of lions to bring down cape buffalo. Bison antiquus is more than 60% larger than cape buffalo. So to accomplish such task dire wolves have to be powerful.

Overall they are both powerful predators and leopard would put up one hell of a fight. But dire wolf would in my opinion win in the end.

The spotted hyena holds a bite force of 1,000 pounds, and a leopard can still overcome that disadvantage in a battle. The spotted hyena has a very muscular and durable neck with not only a skull (like the dire wolf's), but also a muscle mass that the leopard can still overcome. No, the leopard is not helpless against the dire wolf, nor is he unfamiliar with such advantages stacked against him in battle.

Now, a 30 pound advantage at max weights like you mentioned is enough to neutralize the leopard's advantages, in which case I'd call male against male 50/50 in such a battle; a 20-pound advantage like on average, however, is not enough to do so, and the leopard (so long as we're using African or Persian) would win. Now, a male snow, clouded, or Amur leopard would be too small, of course, to fight evenly with a grown male dire wolf.

Also, the dire wolf's biggest advantage is its bite, but that's not something with which the leopard isn't familiar; a grown male African can and does overcome a similar bite force advantage against a matriarch spotted hyena. And while her agility may not be as good as the dire wolf's, she makes up for it with not only a robust skull like his, but also an extremely robust muscular frame that even a male lion struggles like hell to penetrate and kill. In many cases, lions of both sexes (which are vastly superior to leopards, dire wolves, and spotted hyenas) manage to maul, but fail to kill, grown adult spotted hyenas much smaller than themselves. This kind of insane durability and robusticity in the neck (and rest of the body's muscles) compensate for any minor agility disadvantages that the spotted hyena may suffer against a dire wolf.

However, the dire wolf does not have the versatility that a male leopard does, and he is going down here. He also does not have more muscular/flesh robusticity the way that he does in the skull. The male leopard holds the advantage there by far. At average weights, a male African or Persian leopard beats the male dire wolf 6/10 times, tho after a very, very tough battle that will result in exhaustion and possibly some injuries for the leopard. But the leopard, with better reflexes and agility, is not just going to roll over and let the dire wolf bite him. In addition, as difficult and exhausting as it can be for a male leopard to kill a female spotted hyena, he can still do so eventually with his skull/jugular bite.

Also, no, it does not take a "whole pride of lions" to take down a buffalo at all... it takes maybe three lionesses and at most two lions. Single male lions can do it, too, but it's very, very tough. Three lionesses can bring down a buffalo with some effort, and two male lions can do it comfortably. So no, it does not take a "whole pride of lions" to take down a buffalo; a whole pride can take down a hippopotamus, which is so far either of these predators' (dire wolf's or leopard's) league, even for a dire wolf pack.

The bite alone can't do it against a female spotted hyena, and won't even do so against a male dire wolf, but the combination of the grappling and killer skull bite will give the leopard his victory here. The leopard is seriously underestimated on this thread. He wins this one, even if with a lot of difficulty.

[ultimatium35]

I have to address dinosauria101's claims.

1. Leopards can vary in size depending on the environement or region.

Average of mature Leopards in Phinda Game Reserve was 72 kg (Balme et. al. 2012).

Tuli Predator Project in Botswana pointed out Leopards to be average of 70 kg.

According to My Journey, Male Leopards in Northern Iran averaged from 67 kg to 70 kg.

In Okavango Delta, there was a rough estimare of 65.8 kg (Hubel et. al. 2018).


2. Big Cat stamina is poor for short chases.

However, they can take a relatively long time to kill an animal.

In the 'Leopard vs. Komodo Dragon' thread, I posted a video of a Leopard battling a Wild Boar for 15 minutes, eventually killing it.

I also posted a video of a Jaguar taking 20 minutes to kill a Caiman.

[ultimatium35]

The closest event to this fight that we have is a sub-adult female Leopard killing an equal sized of not biggest Eurasian/Caucasus Mountsin Wolf.

A sub adult female Leopard killed an adult Wolf.

"During the year of their stay in the reserve, the leopards caught 15 deer, six rounds and a chamois, two roe deer, four wild boars, and Victoria managed to get even an adult wolf!"

Оригинал статьи: www.kp.ru/guide/peredneaziatskii-leopard.html

A sub-adult female Leopard from Iran would be between 23-41 kg, bit more likely in the 25-35 kg weight range.

The Eurasian Wolf has an overall average of 39 kg, but many places they can reach and surpass 45 kg.

Now, a Dire Wolf is more built than a Grey Wolf.

However, Leopards are great grapplers and fighters, are relatively strong, and have demonstrated knowledge of skull bites.

Overall, a similar sized Leopard would likely win 6-7/10.