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Post by Runic on May 30, 2013 4:18:08 GMT 5
Grey Wolf (Canis Lupus)  The grey wolf or gray wolf (Canis lupus), also known as simply wolf, is the largest wild member of the Canidae family. It is an ice age survivor originating during the Late Pleistocene around 300,000 years ago. DNA sequencing and genetic drift studies reaffirm that the gray wolf shares a common ancestry with the domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris). Although certain aspects of this conclusion have been questioned, including recently, the main body of evidence confirms it. A number of other gray wolf subspecies have been identified, though the actual number of subspecies is still open to discussion. Gray wolves are typically apex predators in the ecosystems they occupy. Though not as adaptable as more generalist canid species, wolves have thrived in temperate forests, deserts, mountains, tundra, taiga, grasslands, and even urban areas Size: 100-190lbs (I included the world record weight to show the diversity) Spotted Hyena (Crocuta Crocuta)  The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The species is however experiencing declines outside of protected areas due to habitat loss and poaching. The species may have originated in Asia, and once ranged throughout Europe for at least one million years until the end of the Late Pleistocene. Size: 150- 200(?)lbs |
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Post by Runic on May 30, 2013 4:39:36 GMT 5
I'll start this off, I favor the Grey Wolf if the two are the same weight.
First off the Grey Wolves killing apparatus is superior in pretty much everything but bite force and robustness. It's teeth are more suited to shearing and cutting, its incisors allow it much greater grappling ability (It generally goes Canids>Hyenas>Felids in terms of grappling with the mouth) and it's generally the seemingly more aggressive and better fighter (Grey Wolves readily attack the skull compared to hyena who based off from what I've seen, attack anywhere.) And the wolf should generally have the more powerful physique all around as hyena have underdeveloped hindquarters.
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Fragillimus335
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Post by Fragillimus335 on May 31, 2013 2:38:55 GMT 5
The wolf is the slightly more efficient predator, but the hyena's general ~10% weight advantage makes this 55/45 in favor of the hyena.
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Post by Grey on May 31, 2013 3:21:24 GMT 5
Very close.
I'm not a strict specialist in hyenids and canids. The bulk and superior bite force of the hyena would at the first look give the advantage but the traits described by BlackIce are interesting especially the agression prt, which is obvious when you observe both of these predators.
A close, close match.
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Post by Runic on May 31, 2013 3:48:18 GMT 5
Very close. I'm not a strict specialist in hyenids and canids. The bulk and superior bite force of the hyena would at the first look give the advantage but the traits described by BlackIce are interesting especially the agression prt, which is obvious when you observe both of these predators. A close, close match. Oh boy you don't know the half of it. On CF I had to explain the actual attributes that make a wolves jaws deadly. The idiots on CF (except for the ones that genuinely could defend the hyena) kept saying "Mismatch hyena wins cuz much stronger bite". And even after I broke everything down you'd still see noobs saying "hyena it has a stronger bite." I can not tell you how frustrating that was. |
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Post by Grey on May 31, 2013 4:14:15 GMT 5
Noobs are often unable to closely look at all the different factors in a match like this.
I admit that time to time I've myself made short, not really advanced, half-beaked responses in some threads.
But here, the much higher agression of the grey wolf has to be reckoned with. And in fact, that's often a forgotten factor, surprisingly. Or maybe because I'm more often on prehistoric matches, where agression is hardly kept in the count.
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Post by Runic on May 31, 2013 4:24:13 GMT 5
Noobs are often unable to closely look at all the different factors in a match like this. I admit that time to time I've myself made short, not really advanced, half-beaked responses in some threads. But here, the much higher agression of the grey wolf has to be reckoned with. And in fact, that's often a forgotten factor, surprisingly. Or maybe because I'm more often on prehistoric matches, where agression is hardly kept in the count. I said that the wolves kill eachother more than lions kill eachother (60% for wolves v 50% for lions) yet I hear this. "Hyena mortality is influenced by lions attacking them). Aggression is actually one of the most important factors in a fight. |
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Fragillimus335
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Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
Posts: 573
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Post by Fragillimus335 on May 31, 2013 4:35:51 GMT 5
Noobs are often unable to closely look at all the different factors in a match like this. I admit that time to time I've myself made short, not really advanced, half-beaked responses in some threads. But here, the much higher agression of the grey wolf has to be reckoned with. And in fact, that's often a forgotten factor, surprisingly. Or maybe because I'm more often on prehistoric matches, where agression is hardly kept in the count. I said that the wolves kill eachother more than lions kill eachother (60% for wolves v 50% for lions) yet I hear this. "Hyena mortality is influenced by lions attacking them). Aggression is actually one of the most important factors in a fight. Although aggression is an absolute non-factor when we consider both animals are in a death match scenario. We assume both animals "know" they have to kill their opponent at all costs, so both will be deadly-argessive. |
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Post by Runic on May 31, 2013 4:46:03 GMT 5
I said that the wolves kill eachother more than lions kill eachother (60% for wolves v 50% for lions) yet I hear this. "Hyena mortality is influenced by lions attacking them). Aggression is actually one of the most important factors in a fight. Although aggression is an absolute non-factor when we consider both animals are in a death match scenario. We assume both animals "know" they have to kill their opponent at all costs, so both will be deadly-argessive. No aggression actually matters even more in a death fight. The more aggressive animal generally dominates the fight be it lethal or not. The more aggressive the animal in its attack the higher its chance of winning is if both animal are of similar capacity. |
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Post by Grey on May 31, 2013 4:53:22 GMT 5
Yes, even in a death match, there's always an animal with predisposition in agression, whereas others are less. Excluding this is somehow placing animals as robots.
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Fragillimus335
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Post by Fragillimus335 on May 31, 2013 5:04:27 GMT 5
But it is important, we can't say, for instance, that since blue whales are calm, they would not fight like crazy to beat a smaller, more aggressive Orca.
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Post by Runic on May 31, 2013 5:09:13 GMT 5
But it is important, we can't say, for instance, that since blue whales are calm, they would not fight like crazy to beat a smaller, more aggressive Orca. That is an extremely exaggerated comp. A blue whale and orca is like an elephant to a child. I did say "similar capacity" |
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Fragillimus335
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Post by Fragillimus335 on May 31, 2013 5:14:10 GMT 5
But it is important, we can't say, for instance, that since blue whales are calm, they would not fight like crazy to beat a smaller, more aggressive Orca. That is an extremely exaggerated comp. A blue whale and orca is like an elephant to a child. I did say "similar capacity" You misunderstand. My beef is with the mental state of the animals. In our hypothetical deathmatches each combatant KNOWS it will die if it doesn't win. In nature there is always an avenue where submission may prove beneficial, or the animal simply might not be aware that a fight will become a deadly engagement. If a hyena KNOWS it will die it will fight just as ferociously as any wolf ever has. |
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Post by Grey on May 31, 2013 5:19:25 GMT 5
Even if our hypothetical deathmatches are...hypothetic, we have to use the normal and realistic behavior of animals and not turn them into killing machines when they are not.
That's why there has to be a distinction between if an animal can kill it, and if it would kill it and if it could kill it or not.
And a an angry blue whale can be very dangerous...No need to be excessivelly agressive when you are the biggest known animal.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on May 31, 2013 6:00:22 GMT 5
Hmmmm, I have never previously put an extensive amount of thought into this match.
While the hyena does have a more powerful bite it is my opinion that bite force is generally overrated in interspecific conflict debate and the hyena's fearsome bite force is to my knowledge mostly appied to molar/carnasial teeth, which are used less than the canines and incisors in conflict so it is my belief that its bite force will make very little difference in the outcome of this fight.
Both animals have incredible stamina so its unlikely either will tire out quickly.
I believe this fight comes down almost entirely to how the animals fight, the different fighting "styles" of these two species, and morphology (excluding the mouth of course as I have already stated how little I believe it will change the outcome) The wolf has a clear advantage in its more powerful rear legs but the hyena does have a powerfully built neck and what appears to be superior durability, so in conculsion I would have to say I am still undecided because I really have not seen hyenas fight extensively so I have little idea how they fight in serious conflicts.
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