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Post by malikc6 on Sept 8, 2016 13:39:09 GMT 5
My knowledge on this is very limited but from my understanding, the Heat Death is supposed to be when energy has pretty much used all of itself and is now at a very basic level and entropy continues to happen. Many people say that once the Universe "dies", that's it. However how can that be, when the universe keeps expanding? How can something truly stay dead forever when it has limitless amount of time for something to happen? What if something like the Heat Death or the Big Crunch happened before, and our Big Bang was the universe's resurrection?
Thoughts on this? How can infinity be limited by this idea?
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Post by creature386 on Sept 8, 2016 13:45:23 GMT 5
There are models of eternal inflation according to which the maximum entropy level is never really reached (because the expansion of the universe somehow increases maximum possible), so that there will always be a false vacuum where quantum fluctuations can kick off further Big Bangs.
That being said, there probably won't be a Big Bang according to the standard singularity model, since an already expanded space with maximum entropy simply does not equal a singularity with low or zero entropy.
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 8, 2016 13:53:19 GMT 5
There are models of eternal inflation according to which the maximum entropy level is never really reached (because the expansion of the universe somehow increases maximum possible), so that there will always be a false vacuum where quantum fluctuations can kick off further Big Bangs. That being said, there probably won't be a Big Bang according to the standard singularity model, since an already expanded space with maximum entropy simply does not equal a singularity with low or zero entropy. Even with an enormous amount of time? Is it possible for entropy to undue itself? |
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Post by creature386 on Sept 8, 2016 14:02:48 GMT 5
Depends on whether the 2nd law of thermodynamics is absolute or statistical in nature. If it is statistical, you may have violations of it where it decreases again. If it is absolute, you won't, you'd somehow have to change the arrow of time for that and there are models which propose exactly that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)#Cosmology(The reversal would need to happen before the heat death though) The probably most comfortable way to reconcile an eternal universe with the 2nd law of thermodynamics would be to say that the universe has no equilibrium and thus the heat death is never reached. Thus, the only way you can safe eternal or oscillatory universes is by avoiding the heat death. |
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 8, 2016 14:16:26 GMT 5
Depends on whether the 2nd law of thermodynamics is absolute or statistical in nature. If it is statistical, you may have violations of it where it decreases again. If it is absolute, you won't, you'd somehow have to change the arrow of time for that and there are models which propose exactly that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)#Cosmology(The reversal would need to happen before the heat death though) The probably most comfortable way to reconcile an eternal universe with the 2nd law of thermodynamics would be to say that the universe has no equilibrium and thus the heat death is never reached. Thus, the only way you can safe eternal or oscillatory universes is by avoiding the heat death. Once again, I'm VERY limited to this topic but what about a potential Quantum Tunneling scenario? Can't that occur if entropy is somehow reversed? And it can be argued whether anything is absolute or statistical. The idea of something being in a constant state permanently doesn't sit right to me. How can something continue to stay the same forever? |
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Post by creature386 on Sept 8, 2016 14:22:59 GMT 5
Once again, I'm VERY limited to this topic but what about a potential Quantum Funneling scenario? Can't that occur if entropy is somehow reversed? You mean to trigger another Big Bang? I think so, but the reversal is the real problem we have to solve in the first place. And it can be argued whether anything is absolute or statistical. The idea of something being in a constant state permanently doesn't sit right to me. How can something continue to stay the same forever? In case entropy defines the arrow of time, a state where entropy cannot increase anymore would be a state where time stands still. Of course this presupposes that the second law is not merely statistical. If the increase in entropy is merely a statistical process, a decrease will one day happen which is guaranteed by Poincaré's recurrence theorem (which states anything that is somehow possible will one day happen if you just repeat often enough). |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 15:12:48 GMT 5
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Sept 8, 2016 15:22:31 GMT 5
i personally have always liked the idea of a universe that is in an eternal cycle of explosive expansion followed by gradual contraction into a singularity.
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 8, 2016 15:34:40 GMT 5
i personally have always liked the idea of a universe that is in an eternal cycle of explosive expansion followed by gradual contraction into a singularity. Is that a Big Bounce? |
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 8, 2016 15:38:31 GMT 5
Is this basically the same as asking if a dead body that's been dead for millions of years suddenly come back to life by somehow regrowing muscle and organ tissue again and then regaining consciousness?
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Post by creature386 on Sept 8, 2016 15:45:45 GMT 5
Not quite, contrary to what Kent Hovind claims, aging has nothing to do with entropy increase (rather with increasing mutation load) and after being dead for millions of years, the constituents of the tissue will likely have disappeared as well (because someone ate them), so that there is nothing that could be reorganized again. The best way you could visualize a spontaneous decrease in entropy would be for example heat flowing from a cold to a hot body, i.e. you put ice in front of fire, the ice becomes colder, the fire becomes hotter. Or you have a bathtub where the water has a uniform temperature and it suddenly starts creating local temperature differences.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 20:19:34 GMT 5
Is this basically the same as asking if a dead body that's been dead for millions of years suddenly come back to life by somehow regrowing muscle and organ tissue again and then regaining consciousness? No. However, it's possible for the creature to be "recreated" alive after it's Poincare recurrence time, provided the conditions are right. |
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 9, 2016 4:38:57 GMT 5
Is this basically the same as asking if a dead body that's been dead for millions of years suddenly come back to life by somehow regrowing muscle and organ tissue again and then regaining consciousness? No. However, it's possible for the creature to be "recreated" alive after it's Poincare recurrence time, provided the conditions are right. Can you please give an example on this? I keep picturing a corpse that over time becomes many different living organisms. |
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Post by creature386 on Sept 9, 2016 12:57:09 GMT 5
I don't think it is possible to give an example of that, since the mentioned Poincaré recurrence time would probably vastly exceed the lifespan of our universe.
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 9, 2016 22:09:25 GMT 5
I don't think it is possible to give an example of that, since the mentioned Poincaré recurrence time would probably vastly exceed the lifespan of our universe. How can we even give an estimate on the amount of energy/atoms in the universe if the universe is constantly expanding and possibly making more and more galaxies? Wouldn't a Heat Death imply that the Universe is limited and not infinite? |
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