Saltwater Crocodile vs Great White Shark

[theropod]

The places the croc would attack would be the fins, tail and head area. The shart would probably focus on the body and tail.

A large shark would be able to take and deal much more damage than a large croc, simply due to being bigger, and it would be harder to bite. At weight parity, it is clear the croc has the larger jaws, is generally a larger animal in dimensions, and probably has an edge, but it still isn't an easy fight.

[elosha11]

Very good comments on this thread. There is only one possible great white v. saltwater croc incident of which I'm aware and it is questionable whether it was a shark v. croc incident or a poacher killing the croc. There are arguments supporting either course of events. Or of course, it could have been a shark scavenging a dead crocodile.



IF this was a great white predation, it would indicate the shark could do great damage in a likely side or below attack, which decapitated a sizeable saltie of between 3 to 4 meters. Here's another article of the incident. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261622/Shark-blamed-decapitated-crocodile-beach-South-Africa.html

I think it is quite unlikely these two animals would attack each other head on, like the inaccurate Animal Faceoff depicts. This is not how great whites attack. Crocodilians are more likely to attack the face of an opponent, but they also strive maneuver to attack less dangerous parts of the body, as seen in this battle between two male alligators.



Generally, the shark's superior size, maneuverability and ability to deflect the croc's bites with its larger body frame should enable it to win most contest. Of course, that's talking about maximum size animals. If we analyze a one ton gigantic croc to a one ton, average sized great white, the contest is much different. To begin with, this is a bit unfair to the great white (just like using a max size great white skews the contest) because it pits a prime, top of the line/best of the best bull crocodile against a fairly typical great white adult or subadult. The crocodile will be significantly longer in dimension (20-21 feet v. 14-15 feet) giving it an overall size and psychological advantage. The bull croc would likely be an experienced fighter and predator, while a 2000 pound great white would be a young to middle age adult, and if it was a female, it could possibly even still be a juvenile and not sexually mature. I'm not so certain that the croc has the larger jaws at parity, although it certainly has the more powerful bite. Keep in mind the great white's mouth is quite a bit wider than the croc's at parity; while the croc's mouth is much longer. But given these different variable, I would probably favor a max size croc over an average great white adult. But probably by the time the shark gets 16-17 feet it's going to be getting in the 3000 pound range and would usually be too much to handle for any croc.

[Supercommunist]

elosha11, I generally agree with your post but I would like to point out that crocodiles do seem to attack each other directly head on, as the photos below seem to suggest.

[Vodmeister]

[Grey]

But that's not about the sheer killing power of respective animals, but their dangerousness for humans, a field where no contest, salties are statistically and naturally more dangerous for us than any shark.

[creature386]

To me it seems like almost everything kills more humans than a great white shark.

[Grey]

Jul 6, 2013 22:28:46 GMT 5 creature386 said:

To me it seems like almost everything kills more humans than a great white shark.

That's close to the truth, there are a number of reasons which explains the rarity of great white fatalities, including the natural behavior of the animal itself.

However, if one great white decides to kill a surfer or swimmer, this is over. I know several accounts of lethal attacks which show how unstoppable a decided great white can potentially be :

On Thursday, 26 January 1989, Roy J. Stoddard, 24, and Tamara McAllister, 24, were kayaking off Latigo Point/Paradise Cove, west of Malibu, Los Angeles County, California (about 34°01.2'N; 118°46.5'W). The couple were training for an upcoming triathlon and, to prepare, kayaked and swam almost daily. The 5-to-6-km round trip from Latigo Point [Photograph-Latigo-scan-403-413] to Paradise Cove was a frequent and enjoyable experience for the young couple. The last time anyone would remember seeing McAllister and Stoddard was about 0930 hrs, when they were observed launching their kayaks and paddling around Latigo Point as they headed north toward Paradise Cove.

At about 1015 hrs, a resident of Paradise Cove observed “a heavy boiling and thrashing in the water out past the kelp beds.” The water commotion was west and south of the USCG buoy. They reported; “a lot of splashing water and a churning of the ocean, like a whirlpool, maybe 15 to 20 feet [5 to 6 m] across. It lasted about 5 to 10 minutes, then stopped, with all going quiet in the water.” Pinnipeds frequent the area of the buoy and were observed “trying to crawl up on top of it. They were very agitated when the water was being churned up”

Friday, 27 January, the two kayaks were found lashed together, upside down, 6 km off nearby Zuma Beach in Los Angeles County. They were towed to Channel Islands Harbor in Oxnard, Ventura County, and were subsequently turned over to the Ventura County Sheriffs Department on 30 January (Photograph). At 1630 hrs on Saturday, 28 January, Tamara McAllister’s body was found 10 km from Channel Islands Harbor (34°05.0'N; 119°18.0'W) on a heading of 220° true. She was wearing a bathing suit and a zippered, blue and black windbreaker jacket. The USCG began a search-and-rescue operation for Stoddard. The extensive search for him was called off after a week. He was never found.

I invested several weeks interviewing local residents, business owners, and others known to be in the area the day McAllister and Stoddard disappeared. No one could remember seeing the couple following their departure at Latigo Point. There are probably countless scenarios for this tragic event. The following is one possibility out of many and is based on circumstantial evidence.

After launching their kayaks from Latigo Point, the couple usually paddled out until they were 50 to 100 m offshore, just inside the kelp canopies, before turning north to Paradise Cove. Once they had arrived at their destination they would swim, talk, and sometimes have a snack before returning to Latigo Point. According to friends familiar with their routines, this trip usually took McAllister and Stoddard 45 to 60 minutes. They could have arrived only minutes after the commotion reported near the buoy. This commotion may have been a white shark feeding on one of the pinnipeds that had been on or near the buoy.

McAllister was found wearing her windbreaker jacket, making it reasonable to assume that she was not swimming at the time of the accident. The kayaks had been found lashed together, suggesting that they were stationary in the water. However, I propose that they might have been trying to return to Latigo Point in heavy seas, with headwinds gusting 30 to 50 knots. McAllisterÂ’s kayak had a small crack in the skin of its hull, causing it to take on water. With her slight build, it might have been difficult for McAllister to maneuver her kayak in the stiff headwinds and choppy seas. The kayaks might have been lashed together by the couple in an attempt to combat these rough conditions. Stoddard would have been in the lead kayak, McAllister the following. With both paddling together, Stoddard would have been able to cut a wake, thereby reducing McAllisterÂ’s effort.

A hole was discovered in the bow of the white kayakÂ’s underbelly (Photograph). Also present were fractures to either side of the hull. They appear to be stress fractures, caused when the kayak was struck from below. An engineer familiar with the construction and material used in today's kayaks suggested that the observed damage would require the hull to be struck by an object with a mass in excess of 900 kg, traveling at least 17 knots, to cause the damage sustained. Several kayak manufacturers said that a kayakÂ’s construction actually causes it to recoil from an object when struck. This flexible construction could have caused the kayak to be lifted into the air when struck from below with sufficient force.

With McAllisterÂ’s kayak being towed behind StoddardÂ’s, she would have been thrown backwards, possibly striking her head and/or hand on the kayakÂ’s surface. In contrast, Stoddard would have been violently thrown forward and could have struck his head on his kayakÂ’s hatchcover, a piece of plywood 25 mm in thickness. Several small, rounded indentations on the surface of the plywood hatchcover were found and examined. Forensic investigation found no hair, tissue or linen fibers. The source of these indentations could not be determined.

Ventura County Coroner Warren Lovell, with the assistance of investigators Jim Wingate and Mitch Breese, determined the following: “Tamara McAllister died from exsanguination, the result of massive tissue loss to the upper left thigh and a traumatic wound to the upper right thigh that severed the femoral artery and vein. Measurement of the left thigh injury exceeded 34 centimeters in diameter.” Bruises to the right hand and back of her head where also reported. The dimensions of Tamara McAllister’s injury suggest that a White Shark about 5 m in length was responsible for this unfortunate tragedy.

sharkattacksurvivors.com/shark_attack/viewtopic.php?t=1150

The predator capsized the kayaks and devored the couple.

[theropod]

Jul 6, 2013 22:28:46 GMT 5 creature386 said:

To me it seems like almost everything kills more humans than a great white shark.

Yeah, ants, bees, domestic pigs, dogs, probably cattle...

However this has absolutely nothing to do with how potent a killer it is, the horrific injuries it can cause when it attacks should show that (people bitten in half, several limbs at once bitten off...). They simply have no appetite for human flesh, very much like lions which mostly hunt humans when they have toothache.

[Grey]

We cannot exclude that, time to time, some sharks can be just...insanes. The 14th July of last year, a young surfer was properly dispatched by an estimated 5-m great white, in Australia. This was not a taste bite, the animal was determined, perhaps particularly hungry or insane, this was suggested by a shark specialist.

[Vodmeister]

I think that the size difference between a Great White and Saltie is being overestimated here. The actual maximum size of both a Great White Shark is a matter of controversy, but they don't reach 7,500 pounds unlike what most people would believe.

The average length of a full grown great white is 4 to 4.8 metres (13.3 to 15.8 ft), with a weight of 680 to 1,100 kilograms (1,500 to 2,450 lbs), females generally being larger than males. But the question of the maximum size of a great white shark has been subject to much debate, conjecture, and misinformation. Richard Ellis and John E. McCosker, both academic shark experts, devote a full chapter in their book The Great White Shark (1991) to analysis of various accounts of extreme size.

Today, most experts contend that the great white's "normal" maximum size is about 6 metres (20 ft), with a maximum weight of about 1,900 kilograms (4,200 lb). Any claims much beyond these limits are generally regarded as doubtful, and are closely scrutinized.

Richard Ellis and John E. McCosker, both academic shark experts, write that "the largest White Sharks accurately measured range between 19 and 21 ft [about 5.8 to 6.4 m], and there are some questionable 23-footers [about 7 m] in the popular — but not the scientific — literature". Furthermore, they add that "these giants seem to disappear when a responsible observer approaches with a tape measure." (For more about legendary exaggerated shark measurements, see the submarine).

There have since been claims of larger great whites, but, as Ellis and McCosker note, verification is often lacking and these extraordinarily large great whites have, upon examination, all proved of average size. For example, a female said to be 7.13 metres (over 23 ft) was fished in Malta in 1987 by Alfredo Cutajar. In their book, Ellis and McCosker agree this shark seemed to be larger than average, but they did not endorse the measurement. In the years since, experts eventually found reason to doubt the claim, due in no small part to conflicting accounts offered by Cutajar and others. A BBC photo analyst concluded that even "allowing for error ... the shark is concluded to be in the 18.3 ft [5.5 m] range and NO WAY approaches the 23 ft [7 m] reported by Abela." (as in original)

According to the Canadian Shark Research Centre, the largest accurately measured great white shark was a female caught in August 1983 at Prince Edward Island off the Canadian (North Atlantic) coast and measured 6.1 metres (20.3 ft). The shark was caught by David McKendrick, a local resident from Alberton, West Prince.

The question of maximum weight is complicated by an unresolved question: when weighing a great white, does one account for the weight of the shark's recent meals? With a single bite, a great white can take in up to 14 kilograms (30 lb) of flesh, and can gorge on several hundred kilograms or pounds of food.

Ellis and McCosker write in regards to modern great whites that "it is likely that [great white] sharks can weigh as much as 2 tons", but also note that the largest recent scientifically measured examples weigh in at about 2 tons (1.75 metric tonnes).

[Vodmeister]

Bottom line is, I'm sure there are rumors out there of 24 feet long 7,500 lbs Great White Sharks, just like there are rumors out there of 28 feet long Saltwater Crocodiles, or those whom weigh 4,400 lbs.

If we use the rational, skeptical maximum weighs, then we're left with a 20 foot 4,200 lbs shark, and a 22 foot 3,000 lbs crocodile. The shark would win, although it'd be close.

[Grey]

Here you can read about white sharks individuals measurements. elasmollet.org/Cc/Cc_list.html

There is still a vast size advantage toward the shark. A 1 tonne saltie is typically considered very large and often hits the news. You need a 2 tonnes great white for the same equivalent impact. The Cojimar female was probably not 3.3 tonnes but more around 2 tonnes based on its liver. But the great white can actually slightly exceeds 2 tonnes, there's no doubtful speculation there. And there are some evidences that ancient individuals within this species/genera reached 8 m. In anycase, it grows quite larger than the salties. A number of individuals on that list certainly reach or exceed 2000 kg.

[Grey]

Also, vodemeister, the Malta female's case was actually revised more recently than McCosker by De Maddalena and showed that the initial estimate was not far-fetched, predicting though a total length of 6.6-6.8 m TL, depending of the tail position. sharkmans-world.eu/research/Malta_adm.pdf

[Vodmeister]

Good information, Grey. Determining the maximum size of aquatic animals is always difficult because our sample size is often so limited.

Nevertheless, here's a size comparison between a 20 ft 2000 kg Great White, and a 22 ft 1200 kg Saltwater Crocodile.



Looking at this size comparison, I'd say that the Salties chances against a Great White are quite reasonable. I'd give it the edge in 25-30% of all encounters in medium depth water. If there was a pecking order among aquatic animals, I would put the Saltwater Crocodile a notch below the Great White Shark, who would be just a notch below the Liopleurodon.

One should also remember that Salties are generally quite a bit more aggressive than Great Whites. A GWS isn't confusing a 200 kg seal with a 1,200 kg crocodile anytime soon! The crocodile, being the more aggressive animal would likely start the fight, that is an advantage IMO.

[Supercommunist]

At similar sizes, I would back a crocodile over a shark as I believe the former would have an easier time landing the first crucial bite, due to its longer jaws. Since the great white shark is significantly larger however, its unlikely the crocodile will prevail, though its possible if the crocodile manages to impede the sharks movements and suffocate it.