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Post by coherentsheaf on Apr 24, 2014 1:09:56 GMT 5
 This is what I came up with regarding that video. I arranged the carcass for scale so that the two are approximately the same distance from the camera (note the bobcat is standing behind the carcass, while the eagle is standing in front of it), then I measured their areas. This is imprecise, due to the perspective involved, and I wouldn’t want to make weight estimates from it, but I think you get the picture; The feline even LOOKS bigger than the eagle, which implies that it is considerably heavier, because a very large postion of the bird’s area is just light feathers, and in addition its skeleton is pneumatised. As a result of that, eagles usually outmatch carnivorans of similar body mass. How is a feline chasing away (and absolutely failing to catch it btw) a smaller, grounded eagle, evidence of predation? Reference: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VegwG4QKdNAhahaha "The feline even LOOKS bigger than the eagle, which implies that it is considerably heavier, because a very large postion of the bird’s area is just light feathers," No agenda here at all...... So instead of using your photoshopped images as "fact", lets use real science. Golden Eagles get up to 16lbs or so in the wild. That Bobcat is definitely not full grown. So bobcats adult males get to about 40lbs Lets say that is either a young male or female. Probably in the 14-25lb range. That makes it pretty close to the size of the eagle. Then you say this "How is a feline chasing away (and absolutely failing to catch it btw) a smaller, grounded eagle, evidence of predation?" So what you are saying is, the bobcat stocking the eagle, crouching and remaining hidden, then exploding towards the eagle and leaping around 10' in the air to try and catch it, is what, exactly? This is why its hard to have debates with some of you guys. This is debating your fanatical attachment more than actual open minded debate. At least that is how it reads. American golden eagles average about 11 - 13 pounds (For females, males are a good deal smaller). 16 pounds are already very rare. It is very unlikely that the eagle is anywhere near as heavy as the bobcat, for which I would guess a weight about 20-30lbs from the size compared to the eagle. As for the nature of the ecounter: I suspect the bobcat tried to prey on the eagle. Only natural if you are that much larger. PS: Science means: Your ideas are justified by reason and experiment, nothing else. The rest is book keeping. Theropods attempt to put both animals in a common frame certainly qualifies. |
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Post by Runic on Apr 24, 2014 1:54:05 GMT 5
I agree with Coherent and theropod. People keep thinking just because an eagle flies it somehow never kills animals on the ground. This isn't true. Once a eagle makes contact with its enemy unless the latter is significantly bigger like a bear or something. The eagle does not let go and the two engage in fighting on the ground. They don't repeatedly divebomb animals. Thats falcons. Actually, the 2 eagles who attempted to kill the dingo went like this, One eagle would grab the neck and the other would grab the loins, when the dingo would try snap at the eagle on his neck, the eagle would fly up, then reattach itself after it avoided the attack. I see you missed the part where I said "unless significantly bigger" didn't you sunshine? |
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Post by Runic on Apr 24, 2014 1:57:06 GMT 5
Actually, the 2 eagles who attempted to kill the dingo went like this, One eagle would grab the neck and the other would grab the loins, when the dingo would try snap at the eagle on his neck, the eagle would fly up, then reattach itself after it avoided the attack.  No prey taken over the the weight of 8kg on average. That is in a 328 day period, so that gives you a idea of what Harpy Eagles are most capable of taking. Adult female harpys get over 10kg, so nothing that this harpy killed in 328 days was lager than it self. A report of a Bald eagle falling victim to a fox but the officials first thought it was a bobcat. With the forensic evidence pointing away from their initial suspect - a bobcat - authorities at the National Zoological Park are on the lookout for a cunning red fox, sought in connection with the July 2 murder of Captain, the bald eagle. Scented lures, traps baited with fish and "camera traps" equipped with heat and motion sensors have been deployed to identify or capture the culprit. If caught, zoo officials say, the fox will probably face a ride into exile in the custody of National Park Service rangers. In the days after Captain was found injured and dying in the enclosure he has inhabited for more than 20 years, suspicion fell on a large feline, perhaps a bobcat. "We found really large, somewhat rounded footprints that looked suggestive of a cat," said Bob King, assistant curator at the National Zoo. The absence of claw prints suggested a feline, which can retract their claws. But the theory soon began to fall apart. There had never been a report of a bobcat in Rock Creek Park, which surrounds the zoo. And the eagle appeared to have been attacked from behind, losing tail feathers and sustaining bites on the rear and abdomen. "That's suggestive of a canine. A bobcat would have gone for the head," King said. Investigators also noted that the eagle's food - a fish - had been bitten clean in half. "Bobcats, or even an eagle, pick at their prey," he said. The bobcat theory unraveled further when Robert Colona, a biologist with the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, identified the paw prints - preserved in casts - as those of a fox, albeit an urban fox with well-worn nails. The mystery of how a predator could enter the eagle's enclosure was solved when investigators found a section of the cage's 3-by-6-inch steel wire mesh that had been bent to form a 4-by-5-inch opening, easily enough for a fox to slip through. The bobcat theory finally collapsed when hairs found outside the cage were identified microscopically by Suzanne C. Peurach, a museum specialist at Patuxent Wildlife Research Center, as those of Vulpes vulpes - a red fox. Although a DNA analysis of the hair and a final necropsy report are pending, the zoo's working theory now goes something like this: The fox slipped into the cage in pursuit of Captain's fish dinner and jumped the eagle from behind; a struggle ensued, in which the eagle was fatally injured; he died on Independence Day. Red foxes have taken out smaller birds before in the zoo's open-air exhibits, King said. Last fall, some avian enclosures were fitted with electrified wires to keep out such predators. There had been no similar upgrade for Captain's cage because no one had thought that the cage, or a grown eagle, were vulnerable to a fox. He then proceeds to use a fox ambushing a bald eagle to make a case. What? |
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Post by theropod on Apr 24, 2014 2:29:48 GMT 5
This is what I came up with regarding that video. I arranged the carcass for scale so that the two are approximately the same distance from the camera (note the bobcat is standing behind the carcass, while the eagle is standing in front of it), then I measured their areas. This is imprecise, due to the perspective involved, and I wouldn’t want to make weight estimates from it, but I think you get the picture; The feline even LOOKS bigger than the eagle, which implies that it is considerably heavier, because a very large postion of the bird’s area is just light feathers, and in addition its skeleton is pneumatised. As a result of that, eagles usually outmatch carnivorans of similar body mass. How is a feline chasing away (and absolutely failing to catch it btw) a smaller, grounded eagle, evidence of predation? Reference: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VegwG4QKdNA hahaha "The feline even LOOKS bigger than the eagle, which implies that it is considerably heavier, because a very large postion of the bird’s area is just light feathers," No agenda here at all...... So instead of using your photoshopped images as "fact", lets use real science. Golden Eagles get up to 16lbs or so in the wild. That Bobcat is definitely not full grown. So bobcats adult males get to about 40lbs Lets say that is either a young male or female. Probably in the 14-25lb range. That makes it pretty close to the size of the eagle. Then you say this "How is a feline chasing away (and absolutely failing to catch it btw) a smaller, grounded eagle, evidence of predation?" So what you are saying is, the bobcat stocking the eagle, crouching and remaining hidden, then exploding towards the eagle and leaping around 10' in the air to try and catch it, is what, exactly? This is why its hard to have debates with some of you guys. This is debating your fanatical attachment more than actual open minded debate. At least that is how it reads. OK, now please read very carefully in order to ensure you get me right this time. I tried to verify an observation that I had made using at least somewhat objective quantifyable methods. Guess why that image looks "photoshopped" to you; because it is likely fairly realistic (and that is, because I did not make some photoshopped fantasy, but scale them to reflect their actual sizes relative to the carcass based on its position in the images, e.g. by comparing the sizes of the visible head), which is what someone photoshopping images will usually want to make them look like too! You are free to do better of course. So, instead of just guessing I provided you with something that’s in all probability close to how they would compare. Your choice whether you use it or not, I could also have simply said "that bobcat was much bigger than the eagle", no further reasoning, everybody would have agreed. Considering your fascination with photographic evidence, I tought you’d welcome this. American golden eagles average less than 5kg. Bobcats significantly more. What can be seen in the video seems to reflect that size disparity. Now surely how a grounded golden eagle may be chased away by a cat significantly outweighing it does not really relate to how a considerably larger harpy eagle would deal with the same cat, nor does it relate to how the situation looks at parity. I’m not denying that the bobcat was making a serious attack on the eagle of course, but my guess is that its main target was the raptor’s prey. There don’t appear to be any accounts of bobcats killing eagles tough, so saying this was just predator prey is plain wrong (again, feel free to prove me wrong, emphasis on "prove"). How the hell do you know that "That Bobcat is definitely not full grown"? It is usually the one throwing around with accusations of others being biased fanatics who has got the problems with his objectivity. Just saying… And guess why there were no prey items larger than 8kg in that study–because it studied a nest site. An eagle can lift something about its own weight, but not much more than that. So considering the average size for female harpy eagles, 8kg being the maximum size found in nests is not surprising at all, even if they were killing adult black caimans… It doesn’t mean harpies don’t also take larger prey, because they do actually kill deer, peccaries, capybara and domestic pigs, sheep and goats. |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 24, 2014 6:30:13 GMT 5
Who ever said eagles were afraid of cats? lol they are not afraid of cats but if they were to fight on the ground the cat would obviously win it should not even be a argument ? that they are not afraid of the cat means that they are confident that they would take a cat in a fight. And given there is zero evidence of similar sized cats preying on eagles to my knowledge your statements are dubious at best. Further eagles attack from the air but unlike falcons kill their prey on the ground. So it is not obvious at all that the eagle would lose on the ground, but all the cats predated o are probably examples of eagles killing cats on the ground. No eagles are not afraid to ambush and prey on cats I never even said they were. |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 24, 2014 6:42:56 GMT 5
WeaselpcktsFirst of all, how is it relevant by any means how the fight would look in some imaginary scenario where the eagle wouldn’t be able to fly? Eagles can fly, just like cats can run! Eagles do their killing on the ground (or, on the animal they are killing), otherwise, you would see them lift koyotes and reindeer into the air. Of course they use their ability to fly and attack from above to their advantage, but I’d love to see your amazing footage of a cat subduing its prey without any swift locomotion involved. Secondly, the cat in that picture looks bigger than the eagle weight-wise. In case any of you noted, that is not a harpy eagle sitting next to it. Its irrelevant whether this cat is comparable to a bobcat. Of course it isn’t, but neither is the eagle comparable to a harpy. Yes, there is a video where a bobcat chases away a golden eagle. That’s not because the eagle was its prey, its because it wanted to scavenge its kill, and the cat was probably a good deal larger than the bird. Cats killing similar-sized eagles is extremely rare (no, cougars and golden eagles are not similar in size!). On the other hand, eagles somewhat routinely prey on similar-sized felines. Well this is a " imaginary scenario" where the eagle can't ambush the cat or fly away ! using ambush kills where they can attack from above as proof is ignorant. |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 24, 2014 6:45:14 GMT 5
I agree with Coherent and theropod. People keep thinking just because an eagle flies it somehow never kills animals on the ground. This isn't true. Once a eagle makes contact with its enemy unless the latter is significantly bigger like a bear or something. The eagle does not let go and the two engage in fighting on the ground. They don't repeatedly divebomb animals. Thats falcons. It attacks the animal from the air before attacking on ground. |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 24, 2014 7:11:43 GMT 5
hahaha "The feline even LOOKS bigger than the eagle, which implies that it is considerably heavier, because a very large postion of the bird’s area is just light feathers," No agenda here at all...... So instead of using your photoshopped images as "fact", lets use real science. Golden Eagles get up to 16lbs or so in the wild. That Bobcat is definitely not full grown. So bobcats adult males get to about 40lbs Lets say that is either a young male or female. Probably in the 14-25lb range. That makes it pretty close to the size of the eagle. Then you say this "How is a feline chasing away (and absolutely failing to catch it btw) a smaller, grounded eagle, evidence of predation?" So what you are saying is, the bobcat stocking the eagle, crouching and remaining hidden, then exploding towards the eagle and leaping around 10' in the air to try and catch it, is what, exactly? This is why its hard to have debates with some of you guys. This is debating your fanatical attachment more than actual open minded debate. At least that is how it reads. OK, now please read very carefully in order to ensure you get me right this time. I tried to verify an observation that I had made using at least somewhat objective quantifyable methods. Guess why that image looks "photoshopped" to you; because it is likely fairly realistic (and that is, because I did not make some photoshopped fantasy, but scale them to reflect their actual sizes relative to the carcass based on its position in the images, e.g. by comparing the sizes of the visible head), which is what someone photoshopping images will usually want to make them look like too! You are free to do better of course. So, instead of just guessing I provided you with something that’s in all probability close to how they would compare. Your choice whether you use it or not, I could also have simply said "that bobcat was much bigger than the eagle", no further reasoning, everybody would have agreed. Considering your fascination with photographic evidence, I tought you’d welcome this. American golden eagles average less than 5kg. Bobcats significantly more. What can be seen in the video seems to reflect that size disparity. Now surely how a grounded golden eagle may be chased away by a cat significantly outweighing it does not really relate to how a considerably larger harpy eagle would deal with the same cat, nor does it relate to how the situation looks at parity. I’m not denying that the bobcat was making a serious attack on the eagle of course, but my guess is that its main target was the raptor’s prey. There don’t appear to be any accounts of bobcats killing eagles tough, so saying this was just predator prey is plain wrong (again, feel free to prove me wrong, emphasis on "prove"). How the hell do you know that "That Bobcat is definitely not full grown"? It is usually the one throwing around with accusations of others being biased fanatics who has got the problems with his objectivity. Just saying… When eagles hunt cats the cat normally runs away and can't turn around to kill the eagle look what happens when a eagle does not ambush a cat  the eagle did kill the cat but the eagle would have died if the humans did not help it, if a small domestic cat can do this do a eagle a bobcat is overkill |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 24, 2014 8:08:08 GMT 5
Actually cat wins at least 75 percent.
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Post by theropod on Apr 24, 2014 21:44:57 GMT 5
WeaselI don’t know whether you are familiar with the report itself, but that eagle alledgedly survived long enough to eat half of the cat after killing it. There is no proof for your claim that "he eagle would have died if the humans did not help it". Sure, a cat, being a dangerous prey item, can easily injure an eagle attacking it if the attack goes wrong. But why do you think it is that cats and even wolves run from eagles in such supposed ambush scenarios? And I hope you don’t intend to synonymize this "not being an ambush scenario" and this "being a scenario where the eagle has one of its feet in a snare, trapping it on the ground"… The eagle has got the high ground, it can attack from above and freely decide when to do that. Ambushed or not, that is still an advantage the eagle can use either way. How large a cat would have to be in order to overcome this is debatable, but felines are definitely at a disadvantage against similar-sized eagles.
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Post by theropod on Apr 24, 2014 21:46:43 GMT 5
WeaselpcktsFirst of all, how is it relevant by any means how the fight would look in some imaginary scenario where the eagle wouldn’t be able to fly? Eagles can fly, just like cats can run! Eagles do their killing on the ground (or, on the animal they are killing), otherwise, you would see them lift koyotes and reindeer into the air. Of course they use their ability to fly and attack from above to their advantage, but I’d love to see your amazing footage of a cat subduing its prey without any swift locomotion involved. Secondly, the cat in that picture looks bigger than the eagle weight-wise. In case any of you noted, that is not a harpy eagle sitting next to it. Its irrelevant whether this cat is comparable to a bobcat. Of course it isn’t, but neither is the eagle comparable to a harpy. Yes, there is a video where a bobcat chases away a golden eagle. That’s not because the eagle was its prey, its because it wanted to scavenge its kill, and the cat was probably a good deal larger than the bird. Cats killing similar-sized eagles is extremely rare (no, cougars and golden eagles are not similar in size!). On the other hand, eagles somewhat routinely prey on similar-sized felines. Well this is a " imaginary scenario" where the eagle can't ambush the cat or fly away ! using ambush kills where they can attack from above as proof is ignorant. The eagle can attack from above, and it can certainly fly away if it wants (eagles don’t seem to do that tough). Ignoring that fact would be ignorant. If you want to pit the eagle against the cat on the ground, how about pitting the cat against the eagle in mid-air? |
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Post by Runic on Apr 25, 2014 1:30:13 GMT 5
OK, now please read very carefully in order to ensure you get me right this time. I tried to verify an observation that I had made using at least somewhat objective quantifyable methods. Guess why that image looks "photoshopped" to you; because it is likely fairly realistic (and that is, because I did not make some photoshopped fantasy, but scale them to reflect their actual sizes relative to the carcass based on its position in the images, e.g. by comparing the sizes of the visible head), which is what someone photoshopping images will usually want to make them look like too! You are free to do better of course. So, instead of just guessing I provided you with something that’s in all probability close to how they would compare. Your choice whether you use it or not, I could also have simply said "that bobcat was much bigger than the eagle", no further reasoning, everybody would have agreed. Considering your fascination with photographic evidence, I tought you’d welcome this. American golden eagles average less than 5kg. Bobcats significantly more. What can be seen in the video seems to reflect that size disparity. Now surely how a grounded golden eagle may be chased away by a cat significantly outweighing it does not really relate to how a considerably larger harpy eagle would deal with the same cat, nor does it relate to how the situation looks at parity. I’m not denying that the bobcat was making a serious attack on the eagle of course, but my guess is that its main target was the raptor’s prey. There don’t appear to be any accounts of bobcats killing eagles tough, so saying this was just predator prey is plain wrong (again, feel free to prove me wrong, emphasis on "prove"). How the hell do you know that "That Bobcat is definitely not full grown"? It is usually the one throwing around with accusations of others being biased fanatics who has got the problems with his objectivity. Just saying… When eagles hunt cats the cat normally runs away and can't turn around to kill the eagle look what happens when a eagle does not ambush a cat View Attachment the eagle did kill the cat but the eagle would have died if the humans did not help it, if a small domestic cat can do this do a eagle a bobcat is overkill Lol you're using a male golden eagles which weigh less tthan 9lbs to prove a point? Tragic |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 25, 2014 5:23:21 GMT 5
When eagles hunt cats the cat normally runs away and can't turn around to kill the eagle look what happens when a eagle does not ambush a cat the eagle did kill the cat but the eagle would have died if the humans did not help it, if a small domestic cat can do this do a eagle a bobcat is overkill Lol you're using a male golden eagles which weigh less tthan 9lbs to prove a point? Tragic I also used a 5kg female housecat.  there is no way that eagle is smaller than the 5kg housecat. |
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Post by Runic on Apr 25, 2014 5:26:19 GMT 5
Lol you're using a male golden eagles which weigh less tthan 9lbs to prove a point? Tragic I also used a 5kg female housecat. there is no way that eagle is smaller than the 5kg housecat. Sorry to burst your bubble but male Golden Eagle don't avg anything close to 11lbs. 7lbs is the average. (Insert smiley face here ) |
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel on Apr 25, 2014 5:28:22 GMT 5
WeaselI don’t know whether you are familiar with the report itself, but that eagle alledgedly survived long enough to eat half of the cat after killing it. There is no proof for your claim that "he eagle would have died if the humans did not help it". Sure, a cat, being a dangerous prey item, can easily injure an eagle attacking it if the attack goes wrong. But why do you think it is that cats and even wolves run from eagles in such supposed ambush scenarios? And I hope you don’t intend to synonymize this "not being an ambush scenario" and this "being a scenario where the eagle has one of its feet in a snare, trapping it on the ground"… The eagle has got the high ground, it can attack from above and freely decide when to do that. Ambushed or not, that is still an advantage the eagle can use either way. How large a cat would have to be in order to overcome this is debatable, but felines are definitely at a disadvantage against similar-sized eagles. Even if the eagle would have survived this is a housecat that was able to do that to a eagle and the eagle being in a snare does not mean it was injured and could not fight back it just could not ambush the cat or fly away like it normally would. |
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there is no way that eagle is smaller than the 5kg housecat.