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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 16, 2020 21:35:51 GMT 5
You have a point that yes, most times in a NATURAL ENCOUNTER a predator such as a crocodile would quickly back off from a prey animal if it couldn't finish it w/o risk of injury. However, this is an all-out death fight where both sides keep going no matter the cost. Reckless enough attacks would cause serious damage to the elephant, even though there may be some casualties. If this is an all out death fight,the elephant is going to stomp the reptiles. I still don't see why we use natural behavior in other hypothetical battles (Piranha vs Liaoningsaurus, where it was stated the piranha would be shy due to being alone) so I see no reason not to use natural behavior here. The crocodile isn't going to deathroll the elephant's trunk+The elephant is much larger, more intelligent, and far more powerful. The crocodiles really don't stand much of a chance against a foe this large. I was taking the shyness there as an indicator of not being the aggressor. Natural behavior can definitely apply here as long as it doesn't mean the animal gives up the fight. As for deathrolls and intelligence, deathrolls don't necessarily have to be on the trunk. Anywhere they can grab onto and strongly shake/roll works. And how would intelligence help the elephant here? Elephants are intelligent, but not hyperintelligent superfast thinkers. Crocodiles are also very durable and tough to kill; the elephant definitely has the capability to kill a crocodile, but how fast can it kill all or most of them before serious damage starts to accumulate? |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 16, 2020 23:13:34 GMT 5
If this is an all out death fight,the elephant is going to stomp the reptiles. I still don't see why we use natural behavior in other hypothetical battles (Piranha vs Liaoningsaurus, where it was stated the piranha would be shy due to being alone) so I see no reason not to use natural behavior here. The crocodile isn't going to deathroll the elephant's trunk+The elephant is much larger, more intelligent, and far more powerful. The crocodiles really don't stand much of a chance against a foe this large. I was taking the shyness there as an indicator of not being the aggressor. Natural behavior can definitely apply here as long as it doesn't mean the animal gives up the fight. As for deathrolls and intelligence, deathrolls don't necessarily have to be on the trunk. Anywhere they can grab onto and strongly shake/roll works. And how would intelligence help the elephant here? Elephants are intelligent, but not hyperintelligent superfast thinkers. Crocodiles are also very durable and tough to kill; the elephant definitely has the capability to kill a crocodile, but how fast can it kill all or most of them before serious damage starts to accumulate? That's the issue with the deathroll-there's nowhere to bite the elephant and deathroll for significant damage. Loose skin near the legs is dangerous and not life-threatening (and that stuff is tough, too). The crocodiles are just too small to actually do significant damage to the elephant quickly enough.
The elephant can strategize and plant. Crocodiles can too, to a lesser extent. The elephant knows where it is out of its element. It will be the one controlling the fight. Crocodiles are so much lower than the elephant that stomping/crushing/goring them will not be hard for the elephant. The elephant can and will kill the crocodiles faster than the crocodiles can seriously damage the elephant.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 16, 2020 23:58:51 GMT 5
I was taking the shyness there as an indicator of not being the aggressor. Natural behavior can definitely apply here as long as it doesn't mean the animal gives up the fight. As for deathrolls and intelligence, deathrolls don't necessarily have to be on the trunk. Anywhere they can grab onto and strongly shake/roll works. And how would intelligence help the elephant here? Elephants are intelligent, but not hyperintelligent superfast thinkers. Crocodiles are also very durable and tough to kill; the elephant definitely has the capability to kill a crocodile, but how fast can it kill all or most of them before serious damage starts to accumulate? That's the issue with the deathroll-there's nowhere to bite the elephant and deathroll for significant damage. Loose skin near the legs is dangerous and not life-threatening (and that stuff is tough, too). The crocodiles are just too small to actually do significant damage to the elephant quickly enough.
The elephant can strategize and plant. Crocodiles can too, to a lesser extent. The elephant knows where it is out of its element. It will be the one controlling the fight. Crocodiles are so much lower than the elephant that stomping/crushing/goring them will not be hard for the elephant. The elephant can and will kill the crocodiles faster than the crocodiles can seriously damage the elephant.
Well, there just might be. The thing is, the reason why (African bush) elephants have loose skin is to increase wrinkles and folds for more surface area in order to help it cool down. The Naumann's elephant, meanwhile, lived in Japan during the ice age - a rather cold place. I doubt it would have very loose skin or at least skin that's as loose as African bush elephants; that would be detrimental to its thermoregulatory abilities and it might not be able to keep warm enough if it did. As for places to bite, the flanks present a large window of opportunity; all the crocodiles have to do is get good bite area then twist/roll. I agree that if they are on land, the elephant has a chance, and it is definitely capable of killing one. Just how fast can it do so before it begins sustaining severe damage? Not to mention elephants are not exactly cursorial, so catching the crocs (they are surprisingly fast) would be hard |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 0:16:32 GMT 5
That's the issue with the deathroll-there's nowhere to bite the elephant and deathroll for significant damage. Loose skin near the legs is dangerous and not life-threatening (and that stuff is tough, too). The crocodiles are just too small to actually do significant damage to the elephant quickly enough.
The elephant can strategize and plant. Crocodiles can too, to a lesser extent. The elephant knows where it is out of its element. It will be the one controlling the fight. Crocodiles are so much lower than the elephant that stomping/crushing/goring them will not be hard for the elephant. The elephant can and will kill the crocodiles faster than the crocodiles can seriously damage the elephant.
Well, there just might be. The thing is, the reason why (African bush) elephants have loose skin is to increase wrinkles and folds for more surface area in order to help it cool down. The Naumann's elephant, meanwhile, lived in Japan during the ice age - a rather cold place. I doubt it would have very loose skin or at least skin that's as loose as African bush elephants; that would be detrimental to its thermoregulatory abilities and it might not be able to keep warm enough if it did. As for places to bite, the flanks present a large window of opportunity; all the crocodiles have to do is get good bite area then twist/roll. I agree that if they are on land, the elephant has a chance, and it is definitely capable of killing one. Just how fast can it do so before it begins sustaining severe damage? Not to mention elephants are not exactly cursorial, so catching the crocs (they are surprisingly fast) would be hard Well then the crocs don't have a place other than the trunk to land a latching bite-the elephant's sheer size protects it from this. Cant twist/roll if you can't actually hang on to something. On another note, if it did live in ice age Japan, why are we ignoring the potential for damage-soaking blubber to be present on the elephant?
The elephant can kill the majority of the crocodiles through various means faster than the crocodiles can cause severe damage to the elephant. No crocodile is going to survive being anger-stomped on or gored by a 2.5 ton-3.5 ton elephant. Crocodiles also have low stamina compared to mammals.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 0:42:33 GMT 5
Well, there just might be. The thing is, the reason why (African bush) elephants have loose skin is to increase wrinkles and folds for more surface area in order to help it cool down. The Naumann's elephant, meanwhile, lived in Japan during the ice age - a rather cold place. I doubt it would have very loose skin or at least skin that's as loose as African bush elephants; that would be detrimental to its thermoregulatory abilities and it might not be able to keep warm enough if it did. As for places to bite, the flanks present a large window of opportunity; all the crocodiles have to do is get good bite area then twist/roll. I agree that if they are on land, the elephant has a chance, and it is definitely capable of killing one. Just how fast can it do so before it begins sustaining severe damage? Not to mention elephants are not exactly cursorial, so catching the crocs (they are surprisingly fast) would be hard Well then the crocs don't have a place other than the trunk to land a latching bite-the elephant's sheer size protects it from this. Cant twist/roll if you can't actually hang on to something. On another note, if it did live in ice age Japan, why are we ignoring the potential for damage-soaking blubber to be present on the elephant?
The elephant can kill the majority of the crocodiles through various means faster than the crocodiles can cause severe damage to the elephant. No crocodile is going to survive being anger-stomped on or gored by a 2.5 ton-3.5 ton elephant. Crocodiles also have low stamina compared to mammals.
The advantage of a crocodile's bite on large animals is that they can use force and gape in an efficient combo, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. One of the crocodiles would just need to gape its mouth and close it, THEN deathroll, meaning the flanks are very much open for attack. And you are correct that this elephant is thought to have had a layer of fat - however, it's certainly not an insurmountable obstacle. And if it's vascularized, just biting into the fat can cause bloodloss. As for the stamina, yes, it is correct. However, crocodiles are able to conserve stamina well when moving relatvely slowly (they don't need much speed here) and larger crocs tend to have better stamina. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 0:52:18 GMT 5
Well then the crocs don't have a place other than the trunk to land a latching bite-the elephant's sheer size protects it from this. Cant twist/roll if you can't actually hang on to something. On another note, if it did live in ice age Japan, why are we ignoring the potential for damage-soaking blubber to be present on the elephant?
The elephant can kill the majority of the crocodiles through various means faster than the crocodiles can cause severe damage to the elephant. No crocodile is going to survive being anger-stomped on or gored by a 2.5 ton-3.5 ton elephant. Crocodiles also have low stamina compared to mammals.
The advantage of a crocodile's bite on large animals is that they can use force and gape in an efficient combo, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. One of the crocodiles would just need to gape its mouth and close it, THEN deathroll, meaning the flanks are very much open for attack. And you are correct that this elephant is thought to have had a layer of fat - however, it's certainly not an insurmountable obstacle. And if it's vascularized, just biting into the fat can cause bloodloss. As for the stamina, yes, it is correct. However, crocodiles are able to conserve stamina well when moving relatvely slowly (they don't need much speed here) and larger crocs tend to have better stamina. If the jaws don't slide off the flank like a dog with a beachball and the elephant doesn't happen to move forward while the crocodile tries, catching it under its rear legs.
THe crocodiles will have to be constantly on edge , and if they are fighting as you have suggested they will use up their stamina in a combination of failed/multiple attacks and retreats. The elephant will still outlast them.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 2:36:26 GMT 5
The advantage of a crocodile's bite on large animals is that they can use force and gape in an efficient combo, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. One of the crocodiles would just need to gape its mouth and close it, THEN deathroll, meaning the flanks are very much open for attack. And you are correct that this elephant is thought to have had a layer of fat - however, it's certainly not an insurmountable obstacle. And if it's vascularized, just biting into the fat can cause bloodloss. As for the stamina, yes, it is correct. However, crocodiles are able to conserve stamina well when moving relatvely slowly (they don't need much speed here) and larger crocs tend to have better stamina. If the jaws don't slide off the flank like a dog with a beachball and the elephant doesn't happen to move forward while the crocodile tries, catching it under its rear legs.
THe crocodiles will have to be constantly on edge , and if they are fighting as you have suggested they will use up their stamina in a combination of failed/multiple attacks and retreats. The elephant will still outlast them.
Well, crocodile jaws are BUILT to grip. And there are 5 of them. I think even if not all attempts succeed, they have a good chance of doing some damage. As for the stamina, have you heard of the case where a small python wrestled a crocodile and neither animal tired for over 30 minutes? I'll have to find it, but it does show that when crocodiles are not hyperactive their stamina can last a lot longer than many think, and these crocs are larger so they'll have much better stamina. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 2:52:38 GMT 5
If the jaws don't slide off the flank like a dog with a beachball and the elephant doesn't happen to move forward while the crocodile tries, catching it under its rear legs.
THe crocodiles will have to be constantly on edge , and if they are fighting as you have suggested they will use up their stamina in a combination of failed/multiple attacks and retreats. The elephant will still outlast them.
Well, crocodile jaws are BUILT to grip. And there are 5 of them. I think even if not all attempts succeed, they have a good chance of doing some damage. As for the stamina, have you heard of the case where a small python wrestled a crocodile and neither animal tired for over 30 minutes? I'll have to find it, but it does show that when crocodiles are not hyperactive their stamina can last a lot longer than many think, and these crocs are larger so they'll have much better stamina. Yeah, but there isn't going to be much loose skin to grip TO. They'll certainly do damage, but the elephant has a better chance of prevailing.
Struggling (i.e. Moving about) is not necessarily "maintaining stamina". They gradually get more and more tired. The crocodiles will tire before the elephant does, especially on land.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 2:59:09 GMT 5
Well, crocodile jaws are BUILT to grip. And there are 5 of them. I think even if not all attempts succeed, they have a good chance of doing some damage. As for the stamina, have you heard of the case where a small python wrestled a crocodile and neither animal tired for over 30 minutes? I'll have to find it, but it does show that when crocodiles are not hyperactive their stamina can last a lot longer than many think, and these crocs are larger so they'll have much better stamina. Yeah, but there isn't going to be much loose skin to grip TO. They'll certainly do damage, but the elephant has a better chance of prevailing.
Struggling (i.e. Moving about) is not necessarily "maintaining stamina". They gradually get more and more tired. The crocodiles will tire before the elephant does, especially on land.
That's where the very large skulls of crocodiles come in. They would provide good reach. As for the stamina, you are correct that movement isn't the only factor. My point, however, was that the crocs might be able to last quite a while before gassing out |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 3:20:56 GMT 5
Yeah, but there isn't going to be much loose skin to grip TO. They'll certainly do damage, but the elephant has a better chance of prevailing.
Struggling (i.e. Moving about) is not necessarily "maintaining stamina". They gradually get more and more tired. The crocodiles will tire before the elephant does, especially on land.
That's where the very large skulls of crocodiles come in. They would provide good reach. As for the stamina, you are correct that movement isn't the only factor. My point, however, was that the crocs might be able to last quite a while before gassing out It's not about reach-there is no uncertainty that the crocodiles would be able to hit their target. Whether they could actually GRIP it (elephant bellies are very rotund) or hang on to actually cause significant damage rather than biting and then being forced to let go is the point of contention. THey couldn't.
The crocs certainly can. It's just that they'll gas out long before the elephant does.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 4:34:44 GMT 5
That's where the very large skulls of crocodiles come in. They would provide good reach. As for the stamina, you are correct that movement isn't the only factor. My point, however, was that the crocs might be able to last quite a while before gassing out It's not about reach-there is no uncertainty that the crocodiles would be able to hit their target. Whether they could actually GRIP it (elephant bellies are very rotund) or hang on to actually cause significant damage rather than biting and then being forced to let go is the point of contention. THey couldn't.
The crocs certainly can. It's just that they'll gas out long before the elephant does.
Regarding gripping, yes, they may be able to do so along the edge. As for stamina, they only need to last long enough to do serious damage. Not to mention there are 5, so they can split up the stamina. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 4:45:56 GMT 5
It's not about reach-there is no uncertainty that the crocodiles would be able to hit their target. Whether they could actually GRIP it (elephant bellies are very rotund) or hang on to actually cause significant damage rather than biting and then being forced to let go is the point of contention. THey couldn't.
The crocs certainly can. It's just that they'll gas out long before the elephant does.
Regarding gripping, yes, they may be able to do so along the edge. As for stamina, they only need to last long enough to do serious damage. Not to mention there are 5, so they can split up the stamina. The edge of what? There's nowhere to bite safely on the flanks.
THat's the thing-they won't last long enough to do significant damage.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 5:05:48 GMT 5
Regarding gripping, yes, they may be able to do so along the edge. As for stamina, they only need to last long enough to do serious damage. Not to mention there are 5, so they can split up the stamina. The edge of what? There's nowhere to bite safely on the flanks.
THat's the thing-they won't last long enough to do significant damage.
The edge of the elephant - literally. The whole thing is not rotund enough to prevent the bite gape. And they can cause damage very fast (just look at youtube for croc vs zebra for instance). Stamina liekly wouldn't interfere with that speed. |
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Post by kekistani on Jan 17, 2020 5:25:51 GMT 5
The edge of what? There's nowhere to bite safely on the flanks.
THat's the thing-they won't last long enough to do significant damage.
The edge of the elephant - literally. The whole thing is not rotund enough to prevent the bite gape. And they can cause damage very fast (just look at youtube for croc vs zebra for instance). Stamina liekly wouldn't interfere with that speed. It actually would be if there's no mass of excess skin like on modern elephants. If there was excess skin, the crocodiles would not be able to do sufficient damage quickly enough by biting that.
AN elephant cannot be compared to a Zebra. Elephants are far more durable, the crocodiles would wear themselves out trying to actually damage it.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Jan 17, 2020 5:28:54 GMT 5
The edge of the elephant - literally. The whole thing is not rotund enough to prevent the bite gape. And they can cause damage very fast (just look at youtube for croc vs zebra for instance). Stamina liekly wouldn't interfere with that speed. It actually would be if there's no mass of excess skin like on modern elephants. If there was excess skin, the crocodiles would not be able to do sufficient damage quickly enough by biting that.
AN elephant cannot be compared to a Zebra. Elephants are far more durable, the crocodiles would wear themselves out trying to actually damage it.
The lack of excess skin actually HELPS the crocs. Any damage they do is going to go deeper. As for the zebra, you are correct that zebras=/=elephants. But my point was that crocs can cause severe damage quickly. |
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