Grappling vs biting

[Infinity Blade]

Unbeknownst to a lot of people, there seems to be a lot of evidence that animals that can bite in self defense and combat can counter grappling predators with their jaws. This thread can generally be about the whole grappling vs biting question that's pervaded these AvA forums for over a decade, but for now I'm going to progressively fill this thread with biting animals countering grappling ones, whether successfully or not.

I'll start with this instance involving a coyote against a cougar. While the coyote was killed (for obvious reasons), there is a shot of the cougar in the aftermath where it seems to show an injury on its forelimb. According to the video uploader, the coyote had fought back and evidently managed to get a bite in on the cougar's forelimb, despite the cougar clearly being a much larger, more powerful animal and ultimately killing the canid.



video link->

[Infinity Blade]

Video of a monitor lizard and a feral cat. The cat clearly got a grip on the lizard with its forelimbs, but the lizard got the hold on the cat's throat in its jaws and presumably dispatched it.

[Infinity Blade]

Zebra frees itself from a lioness. Although the lioness not only had the zebra in a headlock, but also had a throat bite on it, the zebra managed to nip the cat's flanks with its front teeth, and eventually freed itself.

[Supercommunist]

Dogs turning the tables on leopards:

www.reddit.com/r/HardcoreNature/comments/16ea3nk/dog_mauls_a_leopard_that_ambushed_it_while_it/



Coyote appears to be biting the cougar's face:



Lone hyena fends off male lion"

[Supercommunist]

Spotted hyenas are probably the best example that refutes the notion that getting caught in a headlock = instant defeat.

Granted spotted hyenas have really flexible necks that let them bite back from unexpected angles and are absurdly tough but still the videos speak for themselves.






(2:15 in whole YouTube video)
imgur.com/KdG2gSO
imgur.com/ctkKL6o
web.archive.org/web/20230405042849/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmmusNpHRYw

[Supercommunist]

Grisons probably aren't the greatest grappler but you can see this one try to latch onto this tegu. In this case it might have suffered a broken jaw:



Caimans may struggle against jagaurs but crocodiles seem to be much better at defending themselves from cats:





Small crocodile fends off tigress:

[Infinity Blade]

The wolf ultimately died in this fight, but it's said that initially both animals had a bite on each other. Given that this is also a cougar we're talking about, it must have had a grip on the wolf in its forelimbs too. The wolf died when it apparently was startled, fled, and left an opening for the cougar.

He says the wolf had the advantage early in the fight, when each animal had the other locked in its jaws. He admits he may have influenced the fight when he made a move that startled the wolf, causing it to flee. "Then the wolf decided to let go and the cougar made one leap and nailed the wolf," Mizak said.

www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/cougar-vs-wolf-unreal-battle-caught-on-video-in-b-c-1.2411625

Otter biting a lioness (originally shared by Supercommunist):


Jaguar gets its paw nipped by a giant river otter:

[Supercommunist]

Feb 12, 2024 5:05:43 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Zebra frees itself from a lioness. Although the lioness not only had the zebra in a headlock, but also had a throat bite on it, the zebra managed to nip the cat's flanks with its front teeth, and eventually freed itself.

The zebra didn't just nip its skin. At 1:43 it chomped down on its paw.

Similarly, there is a video of a kiang biting a snow leopard in self defense, though its huge size advantage is probably more relevant.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVO0SpCU_IU



Peccaries, however, are typically smaller than jaguars but are difficult prey items.

[Supercommunist]

This is kind of cheating since martens possess some degree of grappling ability but yellow throated martens seem to be accomplished leopard cat killers.





www.bilibili.com/video/BV17p421f7c7/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click

http://instagram.com/p/Bf2yPJMDLC8

Accounts of yellow throated marens hunting domestic cats:



www.bilibili.com/video/BV19v4y1s7ER/?spm_id_from=333.788.recommend_more_video.0

www.bilibili.com/video/BV1c741167mZ/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click

www.bilibili.com/video/BV1kX4y1n74Z/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click


On a similar note, there are at least 14 instances of fishers killing larger lynxes that the researchers believed were healthy. In fact, if you read the full paper there seemed to be one instance where a fisher killed a lynx and her sub adult kitten at the same time.

wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jwmg.21538?campaign=wolearlyview

[Supercommunist]

www.reddit.com/r/HardcoreNature/comments/1arlguh/giant_schnauzer_fights_off_moutain_lion/

[tyrannasorus]

Grappling shines best when used against horned prey items, where if you control their head there really isn't much the animal can do. In general its mostly used to maintain a good grip or position against other animals

additionally for large cats at least grappling forelimbs allow them to position themselves more easily against large prey, lions constantly moving and re-adjusting their grips on buffalo to get it to fall down.(although this could be attributed to their claw design and their ability to retract them, letting them disengage and reengage easily).

imo grappling becomes almost completely nullified against any large-headed opponent, with it being very easy for them to land a debilitating bite onto the forearm and essentially rendering it useless
seeing that even hyenas and wolves manage to bite back while being grappled, something like a crocodile or hyaenodont would be a hard fight for large cats or bears

[Supercommunist]

An account of a sub adult leopard that was killed by a spotted hyena:

One Leopard was killed by another carnivore. The sub-adult male, M4 died from septicemia arising fromsevere bite wounds on the neck, shoulders andhindquarters. We found evidence at the site of aprolonged fight between the Leopard and an adultSpotted Hyaena Crocuta crocuta which was consistentwith the bite marks.

(4) (PDF) Mortality in a protected leopard population, Phinda Private Game Reserve, South Africa: A population decline. Available from: www.researchgate.net/publication/281537098_Mortality_in_a_protected_leopard_population_Phinda_Private_Game_Reserve_South_Africa_A_population_decline [accessed Feb 23 2024].

www.researchgate.net/publication/281537098_Mortality_in_a_protected_leopard_population_Phinda_Private_Game_Reserve_South_Africa_A_population_decline

[Infinity Blade]

Could this female bobcat being killed by a coyote count? It's cheating a bit since the coyote must have been larger than it (probably ~40-60% larger, depending on the sex of the coyote), but given how cats can successfully grapple with the heads of horned animals much larger than themselves (where the size discrepancy is much larger than that between an adult bobcat and coyote can be), it does kind of go to show how grappling with a chompy mouth is trickier.

On 10 February 1999 we recovered the carcass of an adult female bobcat that had been radio-collared since October 1995 as part of a larger study on Fort Riley Military Reservation in northeastern Kansas (Kamler, 1998). This bobcat was approximately 5 to 7 years old and had not exhibited any unusual movements prior to her death. Bite marks were observed near the head, neck, and chest area of the carcass, which had not been consumed. The skeleton of the bobcat was cleaned with a digestive enzyme solution. From subsequent inspection of the skeletal remains we inferred that the bobcat had been killed by another carnivore. Size and spacing of canine puncture wounds on the skull and both scapulas matched that of a coyote. In addition to puncture holes at the rear of the skull, the left jugal bone was broken in 2 places. Bite marks occurred on most of the ribs, with a minimum of 13 broken ribs. Several bite marks were observed on the right hind limb, with a fracture on the fibula. This specimen is deposited at the Museum of Natural History, University of Kansas, Lawrence.

www.jstor.org/stable/3672519?casa_token=G60bdyVZz8wAAAAA%3AtRPclG4gqjwC8kP9MZ2TMjUZUj2XLduU7tuf_VDGhVfxfKG1H05s5PB56JeXzT_MeAOBKrrVttWF5LC34ZWgoZ3hd2pB2fgoSO1-yqpKh0rbyHfCGA

[Supercommunist]

Feb 25, 2024 5:39:58 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

Could this female bobcat being killed by a coyote count? It's cheating a bit since the coyote must have been larger than it (probably ~40-60% larger, depending on the sex of the coyote), but given how cats can successfully grapple with the heads of horned animals much larger than themselves (where the size discrepancy is much larger than that between an adult bobcat and coyote can be), it does kind of go to show how grappling with a chompy mouth is trickier.

On 10 February 1999 we recovered the carcass of an adult female bobcat that had been radio-collared since October 1995 as part of a larger study on Fort Riley Military Reservation in northeastern Kansas (Kamler, 1998). This bobcat was approximately 5 to 7 years old and had not exhibited any unusual movements prior to her death. Bite marks were observed near the head, neck, and chest area of the carcass, which had not been consumed. The skeleton of the bobcat was cleaned with a digestive enzyme solution. From subsequent inspection of the skeletal remains we inferred that the bobcat had been killed by another carnivore. Size and spacing of canine puncture wounds on the skull and both scapulas matched that of a coyote. In addition to puncture holes at the rear of the skull, the left jugal bone was broken in 2 places. Bite marks occurred on most of the ribs, with a minimum of 13 broken ribs. Several bite marks were observed on the right hind limb, with a fracture on the fibula. This specimen is deposited at the Museum of Natural History, University of Kansas, Lawrence.

www.jstor.org/stable/3672519?casa_token=G60bdyVZz8wAAAAA%3AtRPclG4gqjwC8kP9MZ2TMjUZUj2XLduU7tuf_VDGhVfxfKG1H05s5PB56JeXzT_MeAOBKrrVttWF5LC34ZWgoZ3hd2pB2fgoSO1-yqpKh0rbyHfCGA

I guess the big question is whether the coyote was alone or not.

[Supercommunist]

Human intervention most likely played a huge part, but notice how the fox uses its legs to push the lynx away.

www.youtube.com/shorts/5GfmcYzYi6o