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Post by Venomous Dragon on May 12, 2016 22:30:55 GMT 5
1. So we're just going to ignore significant confrontations between them in the comics? I specifically mentioned that I was talking about Grey Hulk and Base level Hulk from the comics that were made before Marvel increased their power levels yet you somehow keep ignoring this point for some reason. 2. The scan you linked is inconsistent with their power levels because there is a much larger amount of occurrences where he can stagger and KO Venom in their confrontations and Venom can do the same to him. I think you found one of the few, if not the only instance where he couldn't hurt Venom. Again, there is an overwhelmingly greater number of cases where he can hurt Venom without using his full strength :   3. At his strongest he is a 50-tonner. I already posted a scan showing so. 1: I'm not ignoring anything, he shouldn't be able to do any amount of damage to any version of the hulk. 2: That's incorrect, it wasn't until characters like Mac gargan and flash Thompson got the venom suit that Peter could do anything to venom he consistently got beat down when he fought Brock without a plot device, in a straight up physical confrontation Eddie beat Peter every singe time  comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/susanoo/blog/venom-eddie-brock-respect/69369/5: no carnage is considered to be a 50 tonner and he is physically stronger than venom who is physically stronger than spider-man, Spider-Man cannot be as strong as someone who is stronger than someone who is stronger than he is. |
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Cross
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Post by Cross on May 13, 2016 11:13:24 GMT 5
1. Pretty sure there are issues where Spider-Man has hurt Hulk. Any version of Hulk? Even the ones from the 1970's and 1980's that were no where near as powerful as the current ones?
2. So to summarize what you said in number 2, Peter can beat 2 out of the 3 versions of Venom? That's still pretty impressive and I think the only point here is that Brock is OP as Venom.
3. I meant that at his peak potential and at full adrenaline he can push his strength level to 50 tons, but his average base level strength is just 15-20 tons.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on May 13, 2016 12:07:20 GMT 5
1. spiderman also once beat firelord down, just because it has happened in a comic doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any business actually happening
2. nope peter can beat just 1, mac gargan and no to summarize you were wrong the scan i showed was very consistent with their encounters despite your claims otherwise, this is important because brock could do nothing to professor hulk (one of the weakest versions) when they fought despite being just as fast as peter, stronger than peter, nearly as agile, more durable, has stronger webbing and can turn himself nearly invisible, so why on earth should peter who is by all means weaker than venom be able to hurt the hulk.
3. that's just inconsistency, he shouldn't ever be that strong.
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Cross
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Post by Cross on May 15, 2016 11:31:26 GMT 5
just because it has happened in a comic doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any business actually happening Then what was the whole point of citing comic book feats in the first place? I could just as well use the same argument and apply it to a variety of other comic book characters. Heck, I could just reject every single thing in comics using this argument of yours. Hulk once destroyed an asteroid twice the size of earth and he also survived being shot with a 9.8 megaton nuclear bomb, but I guess that just because it happened in a comic doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any business actually happening, right? |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on May 15, 2016 20:05:31 GMT 5
just because it has happened in a comic doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any business actually happening Then what was the whole point of citing comic book feats in the first place? I could just as well use the same argument and apply it to a variety of other comic book characters. Heck, I could just reject every single thing in comics using this argument of yours. Hulk once destroyed an asteroid twice the size of earth and he also survived being shot with a 9.8 megaton nuclear bomb, but I guess that just because it happened in a comic doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any business actually happening, right? Consistency is what's important, the hulk as a myriad of high level impressive feats that are consistent with his average showings, when he struggles against the the likes of Spider-Man that is out of the ordinary. To go back to the firelord example, firelord is/was a herald of galactus, Spider-Man beating him down is as utterly ridiculous as a house cat killing an elephant. So tell me if a house cat managed to somehow kill an elephant would run off championing it against all other manner of giant beasts or would you recognize it as the ludicrously unlikely event that it is? |
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Cross
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Post by Cross on May 16, 2016 9:02:43 GMT 5
Then what was the whole point of citing comic book feats in the first place? I could just as well use the same argument and apply it to a variety of other comic book characters. Heck, I could just reject every single thing in comics using this argument of yours. Hulk once destroyed an asteroid twice the size of earth and he also survived being shot with a 9.8 megaton nuclear bomb, but I guess that just because it happened in a comic doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any business actually happening, right? Consistency is what's important, the hulk as a myriad of high level impressive feats that are consistent with his average showings, when he struggles against the the likes of Spider-Man that is out of the ordinary. To go back to the firelord example, firelord is/was a herald of galactus, Spider-Man beating him down is as utterly ridiculous as a house cat killing an elephant. So tell me if a house cat managed to somehow kill an elephant would run off championing it against all other manner of giant beasts or would you recognize it as the ludicrously unlikely event that it is? Did the house cat kill the elephant multiple times on several different occasions? I'm not saying Spider-Man could beat Hulk, but your house cat example seems to imply that I am saying that. All I said was that Spider-Man has a base level strength of 15-20 tons, and given that he has fought Hulk several times, I am logically assuming that a force of at least 20 tons concentrated through someone's fist can at least hurt the Hulk or make him flinch (Especially if you punch him straight across a weak spot like the face or stomach). I am of course, possibly wrong here but I am at least basing my argument valid observation. You also keep forgetting that the Hulk I am referring to is the nerfed version from the 1980's and 1990's because you seem to keep implying that I am arguing that Spider-Man can beat World Breaker Hulk or something. The MCU Hulk is also nerfed compared to the comic version, but nonetheless even the weakest versions of Hulk are still significantly more formidable opponents than someone like Wolverine and so it is impressive that Spider-Man has regularly fought these versions in the comics. |
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Post by Venomous Dragon on May 16, 2016 9:33:26 GMT 5
Consistency is what's important, the hulk as a myriad of high level impressive feats that are consistent with his average showings, when he struggles against the the likes of Spider-Man that is out of the ordinary. To go back to the firelord example, firelord is/was a herald of galactus, Spider-Man beating him down is as utterly ridiculous as a house cat killing an elephant. So tell me if a house cat managed to somehow kill an elephant would run off championing it against all other manner of giant beasts or would you recognize it as the ludicrously unlikely event that it is? Did the house cat kill the elephant multiple times on several different occasions? I'm not saying Spider-Man could beat Hulk, but your house cat example seems to imply that I am saying that. All I said was that Spider-Man has a base level strength of 15-20 tons, and given that he has fought Hulk several times, I am logically assuming that a force of at least 20 tons concentrated through someone's fist can at least hurt the Hulk or make him flinch (Especially if you punch him straight across a weak spot like the face or stomach). I am of course, possibly wrong here but I am at least basing my argument valid observation. You also keep forgetting that the Hulk I am referring to is the nerfed version from the 1980's and 1990's because you seem to keep implying that I am arguing that Spider-Man can beat World Breaker Hulk or something. The MCU Hulk is also nerfed compared to the comic version, but nonetheless even the weakest versions of Hulk are still significantly more formidable opponents than someone like Wolverine and so it is impressive that Spider-Man has regularly fought these versions in the comics. you are missing the point of the comparison to begin with, a house cat does not possess the tools necessary to kill an elephant just as spider-man does not posses the strength to hurt the hulk. this "nerfed" hulk you have in your mind does not exist, yes there are stronger and weaker versions of the hulk but there is no period of weakness for two decades like you are suggesting, throughout the 80s and 90s the hulk has feats of strength and durability so far beyond spider-man's ability its not even funny. spider-man does not have the ability to damage even the weakest versions of the versions of the hulk. their is nothing particularly impressive about spider-man not getting punched (especially considering that hulk could use a thunder clap and kill spider-man instantly but doesnt simply because of plot), that is all he truly accomplishes fighting the hulk, he doesn't fight the hulk he dodges around him and hopes he doesnt die, that is all spider-man is truly capable of fighting a character like the hulk. spider-mans strength is a fixed constant he is not hulk, without an upgrade like during the other saga his strength does not increase, there is no "15-20 ton base level" their is spider-man's official strength level of 10 tons and his various feats some of which are of a level to put him closer to 15 but anything above that is done inconsistently and is little more than plot induced stupidity. |
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Cross
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Post by Cross on May 16, 2016 10:12:15 GMT 5
Did the house cat kill the elephant multiple times on several different occasions? I'm not saying Spider-Man could beat Hulk, but your house cat example seems to imply that I am saying that. All I said was that Spider-Man has a base level strength of 15-20 tons, and given that he has fought Hulk several times, I am logically assuming that a force of at least 20 tons concentrated through someone's fist can at least hurt the Hulk or make him flinch (Especially if you punch him straight across a weak spot like the face or stomach). I am of course, possibly wrong here but I am at least basing my argument valid observation. You also keep forgetting that the Hulk I am referring to is the nerfed version from the 1980's and 1990's because you seem to keep implying that I am arguing that Spider-Man can beat World Breaker Hulk or something. The MCU Hulk is also nerfed compared to the comic version, but nonetheless even the weakest versions of Hulk are still significantly more formidable opponents than someone like Wolverine and so it is impressive that Spider-Man has regularly fought these versions in the comics. you are missing the point of the comparison to begin with, a house cat does not possess the tools necessary to kill an elephant just as spider-man does not posses the strength to hurt the hulk. this "nerfed" hulk you have in your mind does not exist, yes there are stronger and weaker versions of the hulk but there is no period of weakness for two decades like you are suggesting, throughout the 80s and 90s the hulk has feats of strength and durability so far beyond spider-man's ability its not even funny. spider-man does not have the ability to damage even the weakest versions of the versions of the hulk. their is nothing particularly impressive about spider-man not getting punched (especially considering that hulk could use a thunder clap and kill spider-man instantly but doesnt simply because of plot), that is all he truly accomplishes fighting the hulk, he doesn't fight the hulk he dodges around him and hopes he doesnt die, that is all spider-man is truly capable of fighting a character like the hulk. spider-mans strength is a fixed constant he is not hulk, without an upgrade like during the other saga his strength does not increase, there is no "15-20 ton base level" their is spider-man's official strength level of 10 tons and his various feats some of which are of a level to put him closer to 15 but anything above that is done inconsistently and is little more than plot induced stupidity. Peter Parker has stated that his strength is proportionate to that of a spider. The strongest spiders can lift up to 170 times their own weight. Peter weighs 75 to 77 kilograms according to official sources. That means that his strength level should be at least ~13 tons. Pretty sure the earliest incarnations of Hulk aren't as powerful as the current ones But I get your point. |
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Post by malikc6 on May 21, 2016 12:29:04 GMT 5
Spiderman and Wolverine have actually fought before in a What if series. Wolverine said that it would take every bit of strength for Spiderman to break Wolverine's neck, which he is very capable of. Not only is Spiderman stronger, but he is so much more agile and faster than Wolverine that it isn't really all that fair. This is the guy who can dodge bullets point blank. He is simply too fast for Wolverine. Yeah Wolverine just has to get him once, but the problem would be hitting him.
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Post by jhg on Jul 14, 2016 17:47:47 GMT 5
Web up Logan and pull that slingshot trick in Death Battle. Bam.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 23:19:09 GMT 5
On my old account I thought that Wolverine wins this easily, but I'm now convinced that Spider-Man should actually be able to beat Wolverine in most cases. This fight doesn't necessarily have to be to the death anyway.
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