Pantanal Jaguar v Western Gorilla

[Vodmeister]

Pantanal Jaguar - Panthera onca palustris

The jaguar (Panthera onca) is a big cat, a feline in the Panthera genus, and is the only Panthera species found in the Americas. The jaguar is the third-largest feline after the tiger and the lion, and the largest in the Western Hemisphere. The jaguar's present range extends from Southern United States and Mexico across much of Central America and south to Paraguay and northern Argentina. A study of the Jaguar in the Brazilian Pantanal region found average weights of 100 kilograms (220 lb) and weights of 136 kilograms (300 lb) or more are not uncommon in old males. The largest specimens have been recorded reaching weights as great as 159 kg (350 lb). A short and stocky limb structure makes the jaguar adept at climbing, crawling and swimming. The head is robust and the jaw extremely powerful. The jaguar hunts wild animals weighing up to 300 kilograms (660 lb) in dense jungle, and its short and sturdy physique is thus an adaptation to its prey and environment.


Eastern Gorilla - Gorilla beringei

The eastern gorilla (Gorilla beringei) is a species of the genus Gorilla and the largest living primate. At present, the species is subdivided into two subspecies. The eastern lowland gorilla (G. b. graueri) is the most populous, at about 5,000 individuals. The mountain gorilla (G. b. beringei) has only about 700 individuals. The eastern gorilla is a large hominid with a large head, broad chest, and long arms. It has a flat nose with large nostrils. The face, hands, feet and breast are bald. The fur is mainly black, but adult males have a silvery "saddle" on their back. When the gorilla gets older, the entire fur becomes grayish, much like the gray hair of elderly people. This is why the older males are sometimes called Silverbacks. The eastern lowland gorilla has a shorter, thicker, deep black fur, while the mountain gorilla has a more bluish color. The mountain gorilla is slightly smaller and lighter than the eastern lowland gorilla, but still slightly larger than the western lowland gorilla. Males are much larger than females. A full-grown adult male Eastern gorilla weighs an average of 195 kg (430 lb) and stands 1.7 m (5.6 ft) upright and a female typically weighs 100 kg (220 lb) and stands 1.4 m (4.6 ft). The tallest silverback recorded was a 1.94-metre (6.4 ft) individual shot in Alimbongo, northern Kivu in May 1938. The heaviest gorilla recorded was a 1.83-metre (6.0 ft) silverback shot in Ambam, Cameroon which weighed about 266 kilograms (590 lb), although the latter area is within the range of the western gorilla, far outside that of the eastern gorilla.

[mechafire]

The jagur is quite a bit smaller at average weights. I think the gorilla's strength would win out.

[Runic]

I'd back the gorilla. The jaguar is the largest cat it could take.

[Vodmeister]

Eastern gorillas might not be as big as initially believed though;



A 220 lb Jaguar vs a 360 lb Gorilla could go either way. At max sizes, I'd back a 350 lb Jaguar over a 590 lb Gorilla.

[guategojira]

My friend, as matter of fact, none of these maximum figures is reliable.

The top weight of 350 lb (159 kg) came from Sasha Siemel and was first used by Guggisberg in his book “Wild cats of the world”. The problem is that there is no evidence if this jaguar was actually weighed (the image only mention the weight, and no other data) and the available picture shows a heavy gorged specimen.

On the other hand, the largest jaguar actually weighed by scientist was a large male of 148 kg, it is a video, I found the picture of the specimen and I even have a confirmation of the Dr Cavalcanti, which is the scientist that captures him. Here is the email and the picture of this record jaguar:



So, the real record for a jaguar is of 148 kg and the figure of 159 kg should stay in realms of the “actually, who knows…” records.

For more data on the jaguar sizes and the picture of Sasha jaguar, visit my forum: animalbattle.yuku.com/topic/10/Everything-about-Jaguars#.UzML-lfDU4I

Now, about the gorilla, the figure of 590 lb (268 kg) is definite from captive specimens. The heaviest specimen according with Schaller and Guinness was a huge male that weighed 219 kg, although other sources states a new specimen of 220 kg. About the average weight, I have found that the largest species reach about 165 kg (364 lb), however we must take in count that this sample includes some adult but not fully grow males known as “black-backs”. Check this image that I made.

Here you can see the largest gorilla species in its average and its maximum size. This will help to the duel.

For more data on the jaguar sizes, visit my topic: animalbattle.yuku.com/topic/53/Gorilla-and-other-primates-facts-and-fiction#.UzMJzFfDU4I

So yes, a duel between a 105 kg Pantanal jaguar and a 165 kg adult gorilla will be impressive.

[pckts]

Small weight advantage for the gorilla but Jaguars get a hold of any limb or head/neck and you will consider that area destroyed. I will have to give the advantage to the 3rd largest living cat today, they have to many weapons IMO. But definitely a close fight. 60/40 for the Jag

[Reticulatus]

Not to nitpick but how is this sympatric?

[creature386]

Recently, a lot of matchups got in the wrong section for some reason, don't ask me why.

[fish]

Silverback carcasses have been found with injuries suggesting leopard predation. Leopards usually avoid attacking silverback males, and probably take them on in favorable conditions as with most dangerous prey (ailing specimens, night attacks). Still leopards can really scar up gorillas in fights. While I think a male gorilla would normally be able to handle an average leopard, a pantanal jaguar is another story. I'm not saying the gorilla would lose, I think its potentially a close fight, but even best case scenario I think it walks out with tremendous wounds it will likely succumb to. With a smaller jaguar subspecies, I think the gorilla has better chances of course. I am actually surprised people are giving the gorilla a chance. Many people think that a jaguar is out of the gorillas league. This is one of the matchups I would be interested in seeing a poll, to see if it reflects the comments here.

[pckts]

I have not read any accounts which could be considered reliable of a silver back being attacked by a leopard. But even so, some leopards get very large and could be the size of average jaguars from some areas.

[blaze]

guategojira
I think gorillas are even smaller than that on average, Wood (1979) gives an average skeletal height of 155cm based on 20 skeletons of wild mature males (average femur length 37cm) of Gorilla gorilla while Jungers (1984) (cited in Carrier, 2007) claims an average leg length for males of 70cm, compared to 86cm in a sample of male Australian aborigines that averaged 168cm tall (Macho and Freedman, 1987. cited in Carrier, 2007).

Something else that makes me think that are the heights claimed for the largest males shot according to Guinnes, if we follow Groves this males are average height, how can that be? I think that the supposed 180cm+ records are the gorillas measured with their legs at maximum extend and maybe including the feet in some cases, like the supposed 213cm tall gorilla, the photo in that thread of yours, if that gorilla is that tall then the man to its right is also over 2m.

[guategojira]

Apr 8, 2014 1:45:54 GMT 5 blaze said:

guategojira
I think gorillas are even smaller than that on average, Wood (1979) gives an average skeletal height of 155cm based on 20 skeletons of wild mature males (average femur length 37cm) of Gorilla gorilla while Jungers (1984) (cited in Carrier, 2007) claims an average leg length for males of 70cm, compared to 86cm in a sample of male Australian aborigines that averaged 168cm tall (Macho and Freedman, 1987. cited in Carrier, 2007).

Something else that makes me think that are the heights claimed for the largest males shot according to Guinnes, if we follow Groves this males are average height, how can that be? I think that the supposed 180cm+ records are the gorillas measured with their legs at maximum extend and maybe including the feet in some cases, like the supposed 213cm tall gorilla, the photo in that thread of yours, if that gorilla is that tall then the man to its right is also over 2m.

The average of 155 cm and femur of 37 cm is in the book of Wood (1979) is interesting. I am going to read that document. Just for clarification, that document is from B. A. Wood, not Gerard Wood from Guinness (thanks for light Blaze).

Also, remember that humans and gorillas don't have the same body proportions, humans have longer legs, in relation with our height, than gorillas. The legs of these last ones are very small, is relation with its size.

Some records from Guinness are trully large, but Gerald Wood stated when those height were taken from heel to sagital crest and those taken with the feet extended. Also, remember that both samples (Guinness and Groves) are very small, and few of them were actually silver-back. The problem here is that so few animals have been measured that we are not able to fully state if those sizes are "exceptional" or "average". Besides, the samples of Groves seems to include some "black-backs", which are fully "grow" males, but that are not fully "mature" ones. However, it seems that full silver-backs do not measure less than 160 cm in standing height.

About the picture of that large Gorilla, what I sated was this:

"About the height, this picture show a male of apparently 7 ft (213 cm) in height and about a quarter of tone (200 kg)...

Did you think that this gorilla is of over 200 cm in height???"

Personally, I don't think that the persons in the picture are over 170 cm, so the gorilla is probably of that same height, in the "best" case. The 7 ft figure is just an exaggeration, like many on the old records. The tallest gorillas verified was of 196 cm in height and 219 kg, but Williamson & Butynski (2013) quotes (from Groves) an adult male of 196 cm in standing height and a weight of 209 kg.

[guategojira]

Here are the pages (scanned from my book) about the records of gorillas in the book of Animal records of Guinness from Gerard Wood (1978):






Pages 55 and 58 are only pictures of animals. This will help in the discussion.

[blaze]

I sent you a message with a link to download the paper, is by another guy named Wood haha

I know that but the difference is not that big, looking at images of skeletons and measuring them it looks that in humans the legs are 51% of our height while in gorillas they are around 43% of their height, which means legs 70cm long don't produce a height much over 160cm but this is not conclusive of course.

I'm not sure how much of a problem is including black backs in the sample when it comes to height, if they are similar to us, there's no reason why the black backs should be shorter, less robust build and thus lighter yes but why shorter? My comment about extended legs or lying down was regarding Groves measurements because his average seem too high IMO, either his sample included very big but skinny animals or the record animals were just overweight.



I performed a GDI of their torsos, I think the volumes ended up a little low due to the relatively low amount of slices I used for them but they confirm what I was expecting, a 155cm tall gorilla (the average given by Wood, 1979) has a torso with twice the volume as that of a 180cm tall human, given their considerably more robust limbs and bigger head I think that is possible for a 155cm tall gorilla to be twice the total mass of a 180cm tall human, or around 140-160kg as has been reported in the literature to be the average mass of adult males, let's assume said gorilla weights 150kg, if we scale it up to 175cm tall it'll weight 216kg which is comparable to the reported weights of the largest wild males and at a similar height, then... what does this suggest for the supposed 196cm tall individual? it either was considerably under weight as it probably shouldn't weight less than 300kg when in good condition or the height is exaggerated somehow.

I realized you didn't believe that the 7ft tall gorilla was accurate, I didn't word it correctly, sorry.

[guategojira]

Excellent analysis Blaze, your assumption has its merit. However, you most take in count that not all humans (and gorillas) have the same body type. For example, according with Dr Ernst Kretschemer, the humans have three body types: pyknics (stocky, rounded shapes), leptosomes (long, linear physiques), and athletics (broad-shouldered, muscular types). Been primates, there is no doubt that gorillas probably present similar variations. But even without this complicated system, the simple thing is that there are short heavy gorillas and tall light-build gorillas. Even more, there is variation between gorillas population: for example mountain gorillas are shorter but relative heavier than other populations, while those from the lowlands, from my particular point of view, seems very lean and tall, with a very prominent sagital crest.

So, the 196 cm tall gorillas seems not only plausible, but a reality, although certainly not a common occurrence. Sadly, with so little specimens in record, little specimens in museums and little specimens in the wild, we can only "guess" more or less what are the real figures.

Finally, about the "black-backs", those that I have saw in documentaries are normally slightly shorter and less bulky, however there are some that are really large (like the male "Diggit" know by Dian Fossey), but like in humans, young ones are, on average, shorter and lighter than full adult ones. It inclusion can, in some manner, affect the averages.

One thing that no one have mentioned about gorillas, are those weights adjusted for stomach content? and if not, how much is the stomach content of an adult gorilla? I think that this is an important point of view.