Clouded Leopard vs African Wild Dog

[Reticulatus]

I favor the AWD.

[mechafire]

Mar 23, 2014 0:41:32 GMT 5 creature386 said:

Mar 23, 2014 0:27:30 GMT 5 mechafire said:

the hyena in the video was outnumbered and bitten on the nose, which will not happen at parity with a clouded leopard. Their technique is closer to the basic latching on with it's jaws and shaking it's head. There is a clear finishing disadvantage, awds don't go for throat bites, and don't have the use of it's forelimbs in grappling which cats use to control the opponent's movements while going for that finishing bite. The dog could wear down and pick apart their targets, but a felid like a clouded leopard needs to go for a quick kill. The awd has the stronger bite and better stamina.

They bite and tear their victims apart, which I just don't think is an effective tactic against a clouded leopard who is more agile, has claws, and can grapple.

What about Runic's arboreal argument? The whole hunting strategy of the clouded leopard bases on it, so his doubts of the grappling strategies of the CL being comparable to that of other pantherines are completely justified:

Physically, the clouded leopard is well suited to an arboreal lifestyle. This cat's long, thick tail, shore legs, and large feet allow it to move easily though the trees. Hammer's observation of captive animals show that they are able to climb slowly down a vertical trunk headfirst, more along horizontal branches while hanging beneath them like a sloth, and hang from branches by their hind feet. The clouded leopard's arboreal abilities are thought to rival those of the highly arboreal margay of South America, and statements such as Weigel's observation that "the clouded leopard can move so skillfully it can seize monkeys, squirrels and birds in the treetops" have strengthened the notion that it is a strictly arboreal hunter.

Sunquist and Sunquist (2002) "Wild Cats of the World", p. 280

I would favor the CL if it could attack the wild dog from a tree, like it does with it's larger prey items, but otherwise (and I guess that's the scenario we're talking about), I'd back the wild dog here.

Considering how robust and powerful they are, and their long canines, they are easily able and do go after larger animals on the ground
"The clouded leopard’s diet includes birds, monkeys, pigs, cattle, goats, deer, and porcupines."
nationalzoo.si.edu/animals/asiatrail/cloudedleopard/factsheet.cfm


Their grappling ability is on-par with other cats. In fact, considering their powerful build (as even the powerful jaguar has short limbs) and long canines they are probably one of the most impressive of the small cats. Its long canines are effective for delivering that finishing attack while restricting the opponent's movements. 
"Roughly the size of a small leopard, the clouded leopard has the powerful, robust build of a much larger cat."
www.felidaefund.org/?q=species-clouded-leopard


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look at the agility,speed, and explosiveness of those swipes, leaps, and lunge. I find it hard for the african wild dog to land a meaning bite against movements like that. The cat's claws/grappling and agility would allow it to get a favorable position over the dog. This is all parity, by the way. The african wild dog is just too big. 

By the way, who voted for the cat here?

[theropod]

Grappling an animal and going in for the finishing bite is most useful on a smaller animal that you can wrestle down. It loses much of its benefits if you are not stronger than your opponent and can thus not just control its movements. For that reason, it is always a challenge involving a lot of efforts for felids to kill large, robust prey.

Sure, they manage to do this, because they have superior tactics; ambush and high-velocity attacks, or hunt in a group.

It can still help to be able to anchor yourself to your opponent. But then, going in for a precise throat bite is very difficult if your opponent is the quicker and more versatile attacker, because it simply won’t let you place your bite without being bitten first.

[mechafire]

Mar 23, 2014 15:25:34 GMT 5 theropod said:

Grappling an animal and going in for the finishing bite is most useful on a smaller animal that you can wrestle down. It loses much of its benefits if you are not stronger than your opponent and can thus not just control its movements. For that reason, it is always a challenge involving a lot of efforts for felids to kill large, robust prey.

Sure, they manage to do this, because they have superior tactics; ambush and high-velocity attacks, or hunt in a group.

It can still help to be able to anchor yourself to your opponent. But then, going in for a precise throat bite is very difficult if your opponent is the quicker and more versatile attacker, because it simply won’t let you place your bite without being bitten first.

You have to understand that I'm talking about parity here. At average weights, the dog is just too big. How is the African wild dog quicker? The clouded leopard (as shown in the video) is able to make much more explosive and rapid movements and has quicker reflexes, though this is all short-term because of it's low stamina. Sure tge dog can run faster, but I don't think that makes it overall quicker than the cat. Versitility is is arguable, considering how the African wild dog's only weapon is it's jaws. At parity sizes, the clouded leopard is one of the more robust and powerful of the smaller cats.

[spinosaurus1]

your pretty much underestimating the awd slightly. this canine is actually adapted to control prey with its jaws. and are very fast and agile. and those jaws are nasty. their even able to surcome much larger animals through pain and blood loss. and they do have great agility. i really don't now if agility is that much of a deciding factor since it although the cat is faster in that department, it's nothing major


i honestly don't see how the feline even at weight parity, is going to easily stop this particular canine from tackling it down and literally ripping it apart, flesh by flesh.at parity, i say around 50/50. when both are at average or max weights, the winner is obvious

[malikc6]

I favor the clouded leopard. Though it is outweighed, its agility and claws make up for it. I think if cornered, it could kill the dog.

[spinosaurus1]

at max weigh or parity? at parity, i respect your opinion. but when both are at average or max weights, i just don't see you reasoning being valid. the dog is going to ragdoll it the majority

[Vodmeister]

Mar 25, 2014 12:04:19 GMT 5 spinosaurus1 said:

at max weigh or parity? at parity, i respect your opinion. but when both are at average or max weights, i just don't see you reasoning being valid. the dog is going to ragdoll it the majority

Malikc, first and foremost welcome to the new forum!

Here is where you introduce yourself to everyone;
theworldofanimals.proboards.com/board/14/members-introduction

As for your comment on this thread, I agree that at max weights the dog is too formidable. At parity it could probably go either way.

[mechafire]

Mar 25, 2014 11:34:48 GMT 5 spinosaurus1 said:

your pretty much underestimating the awd slightly. this canine is actually adapted to control prey with its jaws. and are very fast and agile. and those jaws are nasty. their even able to surcome much larger animals through pain and blood loss. and they do have great agility. i really don't now if agility is that much of a deciding factor since it although the cat is faster in that department, it's nothing major


i honestly don't see how the feline even at weight parity, is going to easily stop this particular canine from tackling it down and literally rippinhg it apart, flesh by flesh.at parity, i say around 50/50. when both are at average or max weights, the winner is obvious

" this canine is actually adapted to control prey with its jaws. "
That's pretty impressive, but it is still very difficult to control an opponent's movements using only your mouth, whereas a feline using it's limbs would have more power behind it. Anyway, the picture shows a pack tearing prey apart as a team. The normal latching on with it's jaws, tearing, and shaking their head, all of what you would expect from a canine.
The clouded leopard IMO has a clear agility advantage, as well as more explosive movements (as ambush hunters). Avoiding a hyena is impressive sure, but compared to the clouded leopard the hyena is slightly ungainly with it's long front legs and large head and neck. The clouded leopard on the other hand would be much quicker, their more supple bodies allowing for more angles of movement.
" the feline even at weight parity, is going to easily stop this particular canine from tackling it down"
Anyone of them can tackle the other down. If te African wild dog tried to rush in, it would either be met with paw swipes or be grabbed as it's coming in which might look something like this.


As for your last point, I agree. The dog is just too big.

[malikc6]

Mar 25, 2014 12:04:19 GMT 5 spinosaurus1 said:

at max weigh or parity? at parity, i respect your opinion. but when both are at average or max weights, i just don't see you reasoning being valid. the dog is going to ragdoll it the majority

I favor the leopard at parity. Max weights goes to the dog.

[mechafire]

Mar 25, 2014 12:50:25 GMT 5 malikc6 said:

Mar 25, 2014 12:04:19 GMT 5 spinosaurus1 said:

at max weigh or parity? at parity, i respect your opinion. but when both are at average or max weights, i just don't see you reasoning being valid. the dog is going to ragdoll it the majority

I favor the leopard at parity. Max weights goes to the dog.

Yup

[Runic]

People forget awd are tallish dogs while cl are particularly short. Even at parity the dog would easily tower over the cat. How is the latters short arms gonna control that? I just don't see it.

[Vodmeister]

Mar 25, 2014 15:53:55 GMT 5 Runic said:

People forget awd are tallish dogs while cl are particularly short. Even at parity the dog would easily tower over the cat. How is the latters short arms gonna control that? I just don't see it.

Height matters, the less of it, the better. This means that the CL's shorter height at weight parity would most certainly function as an advantage.

"Functional trade-offs in the limb bones of dogs selected for running versus fighting", by Carrier, et al.



The position of the centre of gravity of an object affects its stability. The lower the center of gravity (G) is, the more stable the object. The higher it is the more likely the object is to topple over if it is pushed. Racing cars have really low centres of gravity so that they can corner rapidly without turning over.


This video explains it beautifully;

on.aol.ca/video/the-importance-of-lowering-the-center-of-gravity-in-a-fight-302208655



So explain to me, how exactly is the AWD's greater height an advantage against the CL?

[Runic]

Height matters, the less of it, the better. This means that the CL's shorter height at weight parity would most certainly function as an advantage.

.... huh? Height actually plays as an advantage as well. Depends on the build which unlike your flawed chart interpretation from Ursus, Wild Dog are not lankly built to the extent of a greyhound. Neither are their jaws on the same level.

The position of the centre of gravity of an object affects its stability. The lower the center of gravity (G) is, the more stable the object. The higher it is the more likely the object is to topple over if it is pushed

Yes cause a short limbed clouded leopard is gonna knock over a Wild Dog. Also German Shepherd are taller than pitbulls, yet a working German Shepherd would wreck a pit.

So explain to me, how exactly is the AWD's greater height an advantage against the CL?

A counter question since you're using flawed logic, is a Buffalos height an advantage against a crocodile? Or a Giraffe to a buffalo? You never see animals toppling them over like toys now do you?

[Vodmeister]

.... huh? Height actually plays as an advantage as well. Depends on the build which unlike your flawed chart interpretation from Ursus, Wild Dog are not lankly built to the extent of a greyhound. Neither are their jaws on the same level.

There is no flawed interpretation in my post, and there was more meat to it than just Ursus' post.

I wasn't directly talking about greyhounds and wild dogs, but rather using their respective physiques as a benchmark.

Yes cause a short limbed clouded leopard is gonna knock over a Wild Dog. Also German Shepherd are taller than pitbulls, yet a working German Shepherd would wreck a pit.

Yeah, because a German shepherd is significantly heavier than an APBT. At weight parity, they would be roughly equal at the shoulder. Also, I wouldn't be so sure about an APBT being "wrecked" by a German shepherd of equal weight.

A counter question since you're using flawed logic, is a Buffalos height an advantage against a crocodile? Or a Giraffe to a buffalo? You never see animals toppling them over like toys now do you?

For starters, a giraffe would get decimated by any bovine equal in weight to itself. An auroch equal in mass to a giraffe would win in a face-off with relative ease. Likewise, your comment on crocodiles is rather meaningless because crocodiles cannot 

One more thing, I'm not claiming that the AWD would topple over like a toy, I'm merely pointing out that its height would be a clear disadvantage, not an advantage against the feline.