Bengal Tiger vs. Kelenken guillermoi

[pckts]

Apr 10, 2014 22:43:18 GMT 5 theropod said:

There are 127 reported cases of golden eagles preying on mule deer in North America alone, as well as 21 on pronghorn and 23 on caribou, overall 130 cases of sheep and goat and 4 calves from cattle. In terms of predator/prey ratio, that’s by quite a margin the most impressive I know of among extant macrofauna. Funny, it’s from a reptile, not a cat!

Eagles are not reptiles for one.

Now lets see these alleged accounts of golden eagles preying on Adult deer, caribou, etc...
Because the only one I can find is the photo traps image of the deer with the eagle on the deers back in Russia. Still no kill is shown. The other is people using eagles to hunt fox and wolf. One wolf is taken down by 2 eagles. And these wolf are very close to the size of the eagle. Now you want to compare that to a 250kg tiger taking down a adult 800kg Gaur, or a adult 1 horned rhino or a adult elephant?

Come on man, that is ridicolous.

[pckts]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXR62wgdvW4
Here you go.
Watch the eagle attempt on the small wolf where the wolf shakes its head violently then pins the eagle with its front paws before another eagle swoops in to assist. Now what happens when the dog is a cat, and its paws become retractable claws meant to slice kill not use for tred like the canids.
This happens when its a cat
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Yx1KXQMCM

The eagle still has all its weapons capable of use even though it is snared up. Yet it is nothing more than a easy meal for the cat.

[creature386]

Apr 10, 2014 23:17:20 GMT 5 pckts said:

Once again, komoda dragons do not hunt like the predators listed. They kill by infection. Huge difference.

As I said, the komodo dragon in the video killed using its mechanical advantage.
Read this:
theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/1008/thread

[Runic]

Apr 10, 2014 22:37:04 GMT 5 pckts said:

Apr 9, 2014 14:33:14 GMT 5 theropod said:

They both have very large gapes (at least when talking about carnosaurs). That you cannot directly compare the very different anatomies of an elasmobranch and a reptile should be obvious, but they can be analogous in function; dealing huge, traumatic injuries by cutting soft tissue.


That would be completely new to me. Afaik machairodontids and analogous animals were built to tackle and kill large prey, their teeth are an adaption to do so quickly and efficiently (contrary to wrestling matches lasting minites while clamping down on the throat of an animal).


There is a video of a tiger shark feeding on a blue whale, and great white sharks, while, like every animal, they mostly feed on prey smaller than themselves, are known to take elephant seals and whale calves larger than themselves.


It does not need teeth, it has a keratinous, sharp-edged beak that fulfills the same purpose. You surely don’t try to imply an animal cannot have deadly jaws just because it doesn't have teeth. Look at snapping turtles, or placoderms!


So? If they had jaws like a shark or even a canid, built for delivering large amounts of mechanical damage, they would not need to do that, they could do just fine with their jaws alone.


You must be kidding me. Ever heard of monitor lizards, birds of prey, sharks or canids? They all prey on larger animals regularly.


I fully acknowledge that crocodiles are not large-prey-specialists. That's entirely beside the point tough, crocodiles are not a prime example of macrophagy among non-felines.

Only in animals bigger than themselves by an enourmous degree (like 10 times or so in the case of water buffalo), and even those they manage to incapacitate quite quickly in many cases. In the cases where lions take down elephants that’s always involving a pride, and it is always a struggle and a long process of wearing it down. What komodo dragons do seems more effective to me, and there can hardly be a doubt about the efficiency of their bites in this regard.

If you want to believe that, I won't stand in your way. But you have to understand that seems hilarious to anyone who has seen the fossils of Kelenken and the comparison posted earlier.

A tiger shark feeding on a blue whale? Come on man. Whales get fed on by sharks all the time when they are dying or already dead. Do you know what a tiger shark would look like next to a blue whale??
Come on now, that is absurd.
And even so, a shark may be able to swim around and take bites out of a whale but that is because there is such a massive size difference it would be like a bee sting to a lion.

At the end of the day, you cannot post a single video of any of the animals I named taking on larger prey. That is the most telling thing, but I can post tons of accounts of big cats killing much larger prey than themselves. I understand you guys like reptiles and prehistoric dinos, therapods etc.... but instead of trying to find one random example to disprove what I am saying, why don't you just find actual accounts or videos of successful attacks on much larger prey.

Below is an observation from a musk ox biologist of a single arctic wolf killing a bull musk ox. This appeared in the scientific journal, Arctic, and can be found on the web here:



pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic23-3-197.pdf

Reddhole, I remember reading an account (maybe by Mech) of two arctic wolves tackling a musk oxen. Its an impressive story I think it was three oxen on the two wolves who took some punishment but still brought one down (post it if you have it) . I also like the Biull Bison v wolf pack on the previous page of this thread.

Yes, one thing I like about canid hunts are the dramatic "battles" that sometimes happen. The case you mention below is from Ellesmore Island, in the high arctic. Supposedly this is the only area in the world where wolves have not been habituated (i.e. learned to fear) humans and researchers can get very close to them.



The account is below, and involved two wolves attacking an adult cow musk ox in poor condition (25% marrow fat), but also fighting some adult bulls too.





Killing of a Muskox, Ovibos moschatus, by Two Wolves,

Canis lupus, and Subsequent Caching





Encounters between wolves and muskoxen are rarely observed and seldom described in detail" (Gray 1987:127-128). The only complete description of Wolves (Canis lupus) killing an adult Muskox (Ovibos moschatus) involved a single Wolf (Gray 1970, 1987); in addition, there are two partial accounts of two Wolves killing an adult (Gray 1983), and descriptions of several Wolves killing calves (Mech 1988). Here we describe two Wolves killing an adult, and we provide new information about caching of the kill remains.



The kill we observed took place on Ellesmere Island, Northwest Territories, Canada (80° N, 86°W) on 8 July 1998 when there is continuous daylight. The terrain is barren soil, gravel, rock outcrops and open tundra with no vegetation except widely scattered ground cover. The two Wolves involved were an adult male of unknown origin and a six-year-old female ("Explorer"), which the senior author had habituated to his close presence as a pup around a den in 1992 and studied in 1993 and 1994 (Mech 1995). In 1998, this animal lacked pups, as evidenced by her inconspicuous nipples and nomadic travels.



During the present observations, we used 4-wheeled All Terrain Vehicles to accompany this pair as they traveled and hunted (Mech 1994). We allowed the male to lead, and we paralleled him at distances of 50-100 m, while Explorer remained within a few meters of us; we continually watched ahead for any prey.



At about 0200 on 8 July 1998, the Wolves headed up some foothills along the side of a high escarpment and passed through a valley alongside the ridge. We spotted three Muskoxen about 500 m ahead in a valley at 0224 and immediately stopped and watched through 15X stabilized binoculars. The Wolves continued on toward the Muskoxen, and when about 100 m away, ran straight at them. The Muskoxen fled some 30 m and headed in a tight group up a steep slope, with the two largest animals (one a bull and the other presumably a bull) about half a body length ahead of the smallest, a cow.



As the Muskoxen were running about a third of the way up the slope at 0226, the male Wolf grabbed the last one (a cow) by the rump and hung on, and the female lunged toward the head. The cow wheeled around, and the male lost his grip. Both Wolves focused their attacks on the head and neck of the Muskox, biting at her nose and neck, sometimes hanging on and sometimes losing grip. The Muskox kept pushing up with her lowered head and horns but did not use her hooves. After about 30 seconds of the focused attack, one Wolf gained a solid grip on the cow's nose and the other immediately attacked the side of her neck, repeatedly grabbing a new purchase. The cow appeared to struggle little once the wolves had gained solid grips on her.



The two bulls had stopped about 15 m farther up the hill, and one of them suddenly charged down at the Wolves that were attacking the cow, sending one of the Wolves tumbling about 10 m down the hill. (We could not see whether contact was made, for the bull charged on the opposite side of the cow from us.) The bull hooked repeatedly at the remaining Wolf which eventually released its grip on the cow's nose. By now, the third Muskox had joined the other two, and they headed back up the hill with the cow tightly wedged between the 2 bulls. The Wolves quickly dashed back after the Muskox. Again one of the Wolves grabbed the rump of the cow, which wheeled to meet the wolf head on. The female then grabbed the cow by the nose, and the male by the side of the neck. The wolves kept their grips on the cow for about 30 seconds, and at 0231 the cow fell on a flat area of the hillside about 2/3 toward the top and stopped struggling. The Wolves continued to tear at her head and neck, but the Muskox did not move.



Explorer fed on the Muskox, but the male climbed to the top of the ridge, possibly still wary of us even though we remained about 0.5 km away, and at 0243 he lay down about 20 m above the carcass. Explorer fed on the kill until 0324. She then immediately headed downhill intently searching around as if to begin caching, and went out of sight. At 0340, she passed by us, and we began accompanying her. At 0345, when about 1.5 km from the kill, Explorer dug a hole, regurgitated into it, and covered it. About 50 m away she repeated the behavior. She continued on out of sight at 0349, but the terrain prevented us from following.



At 0413, we saw Explorer about 0.8 km beyond the two caches, returning toward the kill, which she reached at 0441. She then slept near the carcass. Thus she was gone from the carcass for 77 minutes and had traveled at least as far as 2.3 km away from the carcass. From where and when we saw her disappear and reappear, we estimated that she had probably traveled as far as 5 km from the carcass, presumably continuing to cache throughout her trip.



We dug up the two caches and found that their contents of well-chewed, walnut-sized chunks of muscle meat weighed 0.65 and 0.66 kg. A Wolf's stomach can hold 10 kg of meat (Mech unpublished), so if Explorer ate and cached maximally, she could have made about 16 caches of the size we found. Her time and behavior away from the carcass suggests that she did make many caches, but her sleeping and lack of feeding immediately after returning to the carcass suggests that she may have retained at least some of what she had eaten.



We did not observe the Wolves from 0605 to 2150 on 8 July. From 2325 on 8 July to 0003 on 9 July, Explorer again fed on the carcass. Afterwards she alternately slept near the carcass and chased off an Arctic Fox (Alopex lagopus).



From 0251 to 0336, 9 July 1998, Explorer fed once more from the carcass. She then pulled off a front leg and shoulder and carried it off while zig-zagging and looking around as if searching for a place to cache it. She brought the leg to us, and paraded around us a bit. Her abdomen was noticeably distended. After a couple of minutes, she continued on another 600 m to a rocky stream wash and buried the leg in gravel at 0415; only the hoof and ankle were exposed. She continued on in the same direction as when on her previous caching trip, and we lost sight of her again. We did not see her until she arrived back at the carcass at 0541. Her sides were no longer bulging, so apparently she had continued to cache. When we returned to our lookout at 0445, the male was feeding and he continued to do so until 0537, alternately chasing the Fox. Explorer fed again from 0543 to 0559 and lay down about 30 m away from the carcass. We left at 0645.



When we returned at 2130, the Wolves were gone. We then determined that the Muskox was a cow with well-worn teeth and an estimated 25% fat in her femur marrow. This poor condition may explain why the Wolves so readily attacked the cow and killed her so quickly, for often Wolf attacks on Muskoxen are far more prolonged (Gray 1970, 1983, 1987; Mech 1988 and unpublished). We each independently estimated that the amount eaten and cached from the carcass was about 90 kg, which was about all the readily available flesh.



Most Wolf food consumption estimates (summarized by Mech 1970 and by Schmidt and Mech 1997) are made by calculating the weight of edible material taken from a carcass and dividing that by the number of Wolves and days. In this case, the estimate would have been about 22.5 kg/Wolf/day. However, after two of the four feedings we observed, the Wolf cached unknown amounts. If the amount cached were about equal to that digested, then the actual consumption rate would have been only about half the estimate.



How often Wolves cache after killing large animals is unknown, but such caching is not uncommon (Murie 1944, Cowan 1947, Mech 1988, Mech et al. 1998). However, because most observations of Wolf predation are made from aircraft circling around a kill site for short periods, detailed observations such as we relate here are not usually made. Therefore, we suggest that previous food consumption estimates derived as described above may have to be qualified to account for possible caching that went undetected. In particular, conclusions derived from observations over intervals of a few days could be greatly inflated. We also suggest that future research emphasize attempting to determine how commonly Wolves cache after killing large animals, and under what circumstances.



www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/muskox/maintext.htm

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Ay many more of non cats killing animals larger than themselves in the Animal Conflict thread. This whole big cats are the only predators that kill things larger than themselves is utterly stupid. Hyena,Birds of Prey, Wolves, Sharks, Whales and Dolphins, Crocodile have on occasion, Wild dogs, Snakes,  Polar Bears and many more have done it as well. 

[theropod]

Apr 10, 2014 23:17:20 GMT 5 pckts said:

Once again, komoda dragons do not hunt like the predators listed. They kill by infection. Huge difference.

www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2013_Fry_Komodo_bacteria.pdf
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690028/

"Once again, cats don’t kill like the predators listed, they kill by precision. Huge difference."

Once again, NO SHARK is preying on a blue whale adult. NONE.

You can deny it as long as you want, but a quick search in youtube would have proven you wrong.

Of course this is meat grazing and a freak occurrence. It was merely an example.

No shark is preying on any whale adult for that matter.

Is that a joke?

What does the largest predatory shark today eat..... Sea Lions, seals and fish. All of which are much smaller than itself.

Elephant seals are much smaller than great white sharks?
Not in this universe!

What do Tiger sharks prey on.... Turtles, seals, birds, fish....etc... once again, all much smaller than itself.

What do leopards prey on? mid-sized antelopes!

And once again about Eagles, THEY CAN FLY.

Great, so what?

Why are you guys trying to name kamodo dragons and eagles?

Because they are among the most formidable exant macroorganisms when it comes to killing prey bigger than themselves!

Neither of which hunt like the two animals mentioned nor kill the same way.

So, basically what you are saying is that felines are the best, because felines are the only animals that hunt and kill exactly like felines? I’m certainly also the best soccer player in the world, because nobody is as good at preventing his team from winning!

You have a very limited number of families of large-sized terrestrial predators, and even fewer mammalian ones. No wonder none of them use the exact same killing method as felines! That doesn’t mean they are inferior.

If you want to use example you must use apples to apples.

Well, in that case; "You just made me realize how freakin’ amazing komodo dragons are. No other extant animal runs by a buffalo, nips at its foot and a little later the buffalo is dead and being eviscerated by a group of lizards."
Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

[Runic]

Apr 10, 2014 23:36:23 GMT 5 pckts said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXR62wgdvW4
Here you go.
Watch the eagle attempt on the small wolf where the wolf shakes its head violently then pins the eagle with its front paws before another eagle swoops in to assist. Now what happens when the dog is a cat, and its paws become retractable claws meant to slice kill not use for tred like the canids.
This happens when its a cat
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Yx1KXQMCM

The eagle still has all its weapons capable of use even though it is snared up. Yet it is nothing more than a easy meal for the cat.

You show a monster cougar killing a golden eagle which weighs about 10lbs in a trap as proof? And then you say birds aren't reptiles?

I'm done.... soo done... done.

[theropod]

Eagles are not reptiles for one.

Eagles are reptiles.

Now lets see these alleged accounts of golden eagles preying on Adult deer, caribou, etc...
Because the only one I can find is the photo traps image of the deer with the eagle on the deers back in Russia. Still no kill is shown.

Your doubts are unsubstantiated:
www.jstor.org/stable/2424254

The other is people using eagles to hunt fox and wolf.

Very sucessfully as I my remark. Eagles also kill foxes in the wild.

One wolf is taken down by 2 eagles.

Most are taken down by a single one, quite easily. Read more: scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/12/10/using-eagles-to-kill-wolves/

And these wolf are very close to the size of the eagle.

No way, they are easily 2-3 times the weight.

Also, have you missed out on the report of a koyote taken by a golden eagle? That one was also presumably 2-3 times the size of the eagle that killed it!
www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/00pubs/00-41.pdf

Now you want to compare that to a 250kg tiger taking down a adult 800kg Gaur, or a adult 1 horned rhino or a adult elephant?

You want to compare THAT to a 5kg golden eagle preying on adult reindeer→, or 70kg monitor lizard, despite being severely outmatched in terms of not just mass but also height and mobility, killing adult buffalo?


"Come on man, that is ridicolous."

[theropod]

Apr 10, 2014 23:36:23 GMT 5 pckts said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXR62wgdvW4
Here you go.
Watch the eagle attempt on the small wolf where the wolf shakes its head violently then pins the eagle with its front paws before another eagle swoops in to assist.

And make sure to also watch the tons of other wolves, taken down by a single eagle!

Now what happens when the dog is a cat, and its paws become retractable claws meant to slice kill not use for tred like the canids.

Cats DO NOT use their cats to "slice kill".

This happens when its a cat
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Yx1KXQMCM

Amazing, you provided proof that cougars are so amazing macropredators they can even kill a trapped golden eagle ~10 times smaller then they are themselves.

The eagle still has all its weapons capable of use even though it is snared up.

WHAT?

I guess if someone tied my foot to a tree and my hands together on my back, you would also say I still had all my weapons capable of use? And if then a giant managed to kill me, that meant I was a weakling?
Yes, absolutely!

Yet it is nothing more than a easy meal for the cat.

I’ll let you figure out why.

[Infinity Blade]

Oh, in case anyone wants to debate the whole birds and reptiles phylogeny thing.

[theropod]

Infinity Blade: The effort is appreaciated, but everybody here, except one certain member, is fully aware of all that–so there isn’t really anything to debate here (and if there was, we should make a separate thread for that).

[Infinity Blade]

I was just putting that up there in case pckts expresses doubt later on.

Do you back Kelenken? I think I may actually lean towards it here.

[Runic]

For the record those wolves aren't killed by the eagles.

A rule for falconry is if the kill isn't outright shown when recording then the bird didn't kill it. You can verify this by how they have no problems recording eagle killing rabbits and such but they always pan away when showing the eagles making contact with the wolf (then later shows a dead wolf with an eagle by it)

[creature386]

He said eagles aren't reptiles to some people, he did not say he doesn't accept them as reptiles.

EDIT: This was a reply to Ausar.

[Infinity Blade]

Let's analyze his statement.

Eagles are not reptiles for one.

You may have a different interpretation, but "for one" meant he's putting up a point, no different than saying firstly, first of all, or for one thing. That can only mean one thing.

[Supercommunist]

That is a young buffalo,

Any evidence backing up that statement? Because while it may not be the biggest of the herd its size and horn shape indicates it is.

and still is not killed.

Did you see the other account I posted? The one that stated a farmer lost 200 of his cattle to crocodiles?

I can show numerous vids of crocs being overpowered by buffalo, hippos and elephant.

All predators fail more often than they succeed. And again no single animal hunts and kills hippos and elephant with the exception of freak cases.

Then the biggest difference between a hawk defeating a wolf and this bird is this, the hawk can fly!

That was actually a deer and an eagle.

That is a completely different scenario than being forced to fight on the same level as a big cat, which again is far more formidable than a canid.

Never said that eagles are better fighters than big cats, just disproving your previous belief that only big cats and polar bears hunt prey larger than themselves.