Bengal Tiger vs. Kelenken guillermoi

[theropod]

Apr 11, 2014 0:17:53 GMT 5 Infinity Blade said:

I was just putting that up there in case pckts expresses doubt later on.

Do you back Kelenken? I think I may actually lean towards it here.

I’m trying to abstine from discussing non-sympatric matchups specifically, but I would favour Kelenken over a tiger-sized feline or animal of analogous morphology.

This illustrates why:
It doesn’t look much different with Smilodon fatalis. It would take one hit with that beak and the mammal would be dispatched (Yes, it would penetrate the skin!), it could cut and tear a huge piece of flesh from its body, considering its beak is about the same lenght as the mammal’s body is deep.
As I view it, the odds of the bird scoring a hit are quite good (Yes, despite that mythical cat-agility!) because of its long neck built for striking (at least unless Kelenken had an abnormally short, stiff neck, but that seems unlikely). It also outmatches any cat in the claws department, and based on Mesembriornis it may have been able to deliver bone-shattering kicks. However it is of course inferior in terms of grappling and stability

[pckts]

Apr 10, 2014 23:46:13 GMT 5 theropod said:

Apr 10, 2014 23:17:20 GMT 5 pckts said:

Once again, komoda dragons do not hunt like the predators listed. They kill by infection. Huge difference.

www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2013_Fry_Komodo_bacteria.pdf
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690028/

"Once again, cats don’t kill like the predators listed, they kill by precision. Huge difference."

Once again, NO SHARK is preying on a blue whale adult. NONE.

You can deny it as long as you want, but a quick search in youtube would have proven you wrong.

Of course this is meat grazing and a freak occurrence. It was merely an example.

No shark is preying on any whale adult for that matter.

Is that a joke?

What does the largest predatory shark today eat..... Sea Lions, seals and fish. All of which are much smaller than itself.

Elephant seals are much smaller than great white sharks?
Not in this universe!

What do Tiger sharks prey on.... Turtles, seals, birds, fish....etc... once again, all much smaller than itself.

What do leopards prey on? mid-sized antelopes!

And once again about Eagles, THEY CAN FLY.

Great, so what?

Why are you guys trying to name kamodo dragons and eagles?

Because they are among the most formidable exant macroorganisms when it comes to killing prey bigger than themselves!

Neither of which hunt like the two animals mentioned nor kill the same way.

So, basically what you are saying is that felines are the best, because felines are the only animals that hunt and kill exactly like felines? I’m certainly also the best soccer player in the world, because nobody is as good at preventing his team from winning!

You have a very limited number of families of large-sized terrestrial predators, and even fewer mammalian ones. No wonder none of them use the exact same killing method as felines! That doesn’t mean they are inferior.

If you want to use example you must use apples to apples.

Well, in that case; "You just made me realize how freakin’ amazing komodo dragons are. No other extant animal runs by a buffalo, nips at its foot and a little later the buffalo is dead and being eviscerated by a group of lizards."
Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

Once again, how many animals have been taking bites out of the blue whale? It has bite marks all over its body, and whale carcasses quickly become feeding frenzies amongst sharks. Lastly the whale is not dead and the shark taking small bites out of a whale is comparable the shark which has a 0 shaped mouth that will ride on another fish and remove bites from its body.
There has never been a single account of any shark killing a whale on its own. None.

About the wolf taking on a musk ox, I never said wolves could not take down a musk ox. But there is a HUGE difference between a musk ox and a Gaur or Rhino or Elephant.
BTW, the story you presented needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. The only picture they were able to use was one with a wolf and ox carcass. But if the fight lasted for the hour or so that is alleged, then why do they not have a actual photo of the event?

[pckts]

Also Theropod
Who said "elephant seals are smaller than great whites"
Because for one, GWS do not prey on bull elephant seals, no accounts, no photos, no evidence, nothing to back that claim.

Once again,
Kamodo dragons KILL BY INFECTION
Eagles KILL BY FLIGHT

Both weapons Kelenken does NOT have!
So once again, and even if you want to use them, fine.
Guess who still takes the largest prey, by far?
Tigers, lions, Polar Bears, etc....

Tigers hunt buffalo and kill them in seconds, kamodo dragon takes days to weeks to kill a buffalo (Big advantage to the Tiger)
Eagles hunt wolf and small dear, tigers hunt guar, elephant, rhino (big advantage to the tiger)
and lastly the closest morphological relative to the Kelenken is the Kassowary, and the kassowary is already threatened by feral dogs (far less formidable than cats of the same size)

This debate is becoming meaningless. You are prehistoric animal fanatic, I get it. You have your opinions which seem to be strictly sprung out of your personal love for these animals not fact.

This bird is 250kg, this gaur is 400+kgs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMv9TtEjVRg

There is no way this 2 legged bird can compete with this cat, sorry bud.

[Runic]

Apr 11, 2014 2:01:12 GMT 5 pckts said:

Apr 10, 2014 23:46:13 GMT 5 theropod said:

www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2013_Fry_Komodo_bacteria.pdf
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690028/

"Once again, cats don’t kill like the predators listed, they kill by precision. Huge difference."




You can deny it as long as you want, but a quick search in youtube would have proven you wrong.

Of course this is meat grazing and a freak occurrence. It was merely an example.

Is that a joke?
Elephant seals are much smaller than great white sharks?
Not in this universe!

What do leopards prey on? mid-sized antelopes!

Great, so what?

Because they are among the most formidable exant macroorganisms when it comes to killing prey bigger than themselves!
So, basically what you are saying is that felines are the best, because felines are the only animals that hunt and kill exactly like felines? I’m certainly also the best soccer player in the world, because nobody is as good at preventing his team from winning!

You have a very limited number of families of large-sized terrestrial predators, and even fewer mammalian ones. No wonder none of them use the exact same killing method as felines! That doesn’t mean they are inferior.

Well, in that case; "You just made me realize how freakin’ amazing komodo dragons are. No other extant animal runs by a buffalo, nips at its foot and a little later the buffalo is dead and being eviscerated by a group of lizards."
Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

Once again, how many animals have been taking bites out of the blue whale? It has bite marks all over its body, and whale carcasses quickly become feeding frenzies amongst sharks. Lastly the whale is not dead and the shark taking small bites out of a whale is comparable the shark which has a 0 shaped mouth that will ride on another fish and remove bites from its body.
There has never been a single account of any shark killing a whale on its own. None.

About the wolf taking on a musk ox, I never said wolves could not take down a musk ox. But there is a HUGE difference between a musk ox and a Gaur or Rhino or Elephant.
BTW, the story you presented needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. The only picture they were able to use was one with a wolf and ox carcass. But if the fight lasted for the hour or so that is alleged, then why do they not have a actual photo of the event?

This shows you are wrong and are thus resorting to using pathetic go arounds to keep from admitting you're wrong.

- You said only big cats and polar bear kill things larger than themselves. I just showed you how incorrect that statement was. Now you're going to say there's a difference between a musk ox and a gaur? Who cares!? Musk ox are over 5x the size of wolves yet lone wolves have killed them. Your comment is invalid.

- I just gave you the entire account with THE PICTURE of the wolf next to a dead musk ox further voiding your statement. Are you calling a well known scientifical documented case a lie? Thats like me asking for a picture case of the tiger killing that female elephant.

Your comment "Only big cats and polar bear kill larger prey" is ignorant and incorrect. Simple as that.

And as for your birds can't contend with cats, funny you say that because in the documented incidents of birds of prey fighting similar size cats in life and death struggles, the birds the one with the winning track record not the cat.

[Supercommunist]

Once again,
Kamodo dragons KILL BY INFECTION

That is only one strategy the komodo dragon employs, it is also able to send victims into shock extremely quickly.

The Komodo dragon has unusual hunting methods, but it generally gets its meal: The monstrous lizard, which can reach 10 feet in length, lies in wait for prey and then lunges out to deliver a single deep bite, often to the leg or the belly. Sometimes the victim immediately falls, and the lizards can finish it off. But sometimes a bitten animal escapes. Biologists have noted that the lizard’s victims may collapse later, becoming still and quiet, and even die.

This delayed reaction had caused previous researchers to suggest that the dragon kills via blood poisoning caused by the multiple strains of bacteria in the dragon’s saliva. But “that whole bacteria stuff has been a scientific fairy tale,” said Bryan Fry [National Geographic News], lead researcher in a new study. Instead, the dragon uses its sharp, serrated teeth to rend its victim’s flesh while it simultaneously injects a venom that lowers the animal’s blood pressure and prevents blood clotting. Says Fry: “If you keep it bleeding and lower its blood pressure, it’s going to lose consciousness, and then you can tear its guts out at your leisure”

For the new study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers dissected a Komodo dragon that died of natural causes at a zoo in Singapore. They found a set of six venom glands and ducts that led to the spaces between the lizard’s teeth, and detected proteins known to be in snake venom. In particular, compounds known to widen blood vessels and thin the blood — which induces shock — were present. Fry and his colleagues injected the venom into rats and confirmed that their blood pressure and aortic tension decreased. After the injection, the rats also became still, an outward sign of shock.

The venom is relatively weak, and the delivery system isn’t the most efficient, comments Christofer Clement, a comparative physiologist–but it’s enough to do the trick, he says. “These lizards make a huge wound using their teeth; that’s good enough to get the venom in…. They are robust enough that they can hang onto prey. Other groups like snakes are much more fragile – they have to bite something and let it go. So they have these hollow fangs and more deadly venom”

.

blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/05/19/komodo-dragons-kill-by-combining-tearing-teeth-with-vile-venom/#.U0cv3PldXlx

"...The komodo actually allowed the pig to pass, but when the boar was about a meter away, the lizard attacked from the rear, grabbing the boar's hind leg with his sharp, serrated teeth, quickly severing tendons. The hamstrung boar squealed and turned, trying to defend itself, but the lizard hung on and pulled back hard on his bite, tearing at the pig's flesh and arteries. The boar began bleeding profusely and fell over on its side. Immediately the Komodo monitor released the pig's leg and bit into the soft flesh of its belly. Blood was gushing from both wounds and the boar's intestines were falling out. The entire attack was over..." (Walter Auffenberg 1991

Account provided by Lycaon on carnivora.

Tigers hunt buffalo and kill them in seconds,

That is a massive overexaggeration. Big cats and tigers generally kill prey through suffocation which can take up to fifteen minutes to kill.

kamodo dragon takes days to weeks to kill a buffalo (Big advantage to the Tiger)

Obviously a komodo dragon would have a more difficult time killing a buffalo as it less than half the size of a tiger on average.

Eagles hunt wolf and small dear, tigers hunt guar, elephant, rhino (big advantage to the tiger)

Again eagles are far smaller than tigers, and thus it is obvious the tiger is going to be taking larger prey, but
proportionately their kills are just impressive if not more so. Also do I seriously need to remind you that tigers killing rhinos and elephants are freak accounts?

[theropod]

Once again, how many animals have been taking bites out of the blue whale?

One tiger shark.

 It has bite marks all over its body, and whale carcasses quickly become feeding frenzies amongst sharks. Lastly the whale is not dead and the shark taking small bites out of a whale is comparable the shark which has a 0 shaped mouth that will ride on another fish and remove bites from its body.

Had you watched the video you would see it took more than a few small bites out of that whale.

There has never been a single account of any shark killing a whale on its own. None.

Great white sharks regularly prey on whales→, one 5.35m great white reportedly had an adult cetacean in its stomach!

About the wolf taking on a musk ox, I never said wolves could not take down a musk ox. But there is a HUGE difference between a musk ox and a Gaur or Rhino or Elephant.

There’s also a huge size difference between a tiger or a pride of lions and a lone wolf!

BTW, the story you presented needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. The only picture they were able to use was one with a wolf and ox carcass. But if the fight lasted for the hour or so that is alleged, then why do they not have a actual photo of the event?

There is plentiful evidence of these accounts, there’s no point in denying it.
latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2010/10/the-day-and-a-half-struggle-between-an-ailing-bison-and-a-wolf-in-yellowstone-national-park-came-to-an-end-around-dusk-on-t.html
i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/reddhole/KillingMuskOx1X012.jpg

Also Theropod
Who said "elephant seals are smaller than great whites"
Because for one, GWS do not prey on bull elephant seals, no accounts, no photos, no evidence, nothing to back that claim.

www.sharkresearchcommittee.com/predation.htm

Once again,
Kamodo dragons KILL BY INFECTION

In some cases, komodo dragon prey can escape and dies later on by infection from the muddy pools it is often found in, yes. Big cats also don’t have 100% sucess rates, and surely their prey sometimes dies of infection if it can escape. Repeating that line over and over again doesn’t change anything about it.

Eagles KILL BY FLIGHT

It is impossible to kill by flight, unless you are talking about the consequences of pollution caused by airplanes…

Both weapons Kelenken does NOT have!

On the other hand, it is as large as a fully grown, large tiger, and as tall as a bear standing on its hindlimbs, instead of being at a 3-fold size disadvantage against another predator and still killing it!

So once again, and even if you want to use them, fine.
Guess who still takes the largest prey, by far?

Orcas.

Tigers, lions, Polar Bears, etc....

Nope.

Tigers hunt buffalo and kill them in seconds, kamodo dragon takes days to weeks to kill a buffalo (Big advantage to the Tiger)

Tigers also get killed by buffalo, boar etc.

Eagles hunt wolf and small dear, tigers hunt guar, elephant, rhino (big advantage to the tiger)

Eagles are two orders of magnitude smaller than adult tigers, what a surprise they do not kill prey as big in absulute terms! That doesn’t make cats the best killers in relative terms.

and lastly the closest morphological relative to the Kelenken is the Kassowary, and the kassowary is already threatened by feral dogs (far less formidable than cats of the same size)

Cassowaries are known to kill dogs and even people with their kicks, and they do not have a formidable >45cm long beak and >70cm long skull!

This debate is becoming meaningless.

Indeed!

You are prehistoric animal fanatic, I get it.

No, you are a cat fanatic. As I wrote, if this was any type of prehistoric cat in the same size range, it would be the same situation.

You have your opinions which seem to be strictly sprung out of your personal love for these animals not fact.

I have actually brought up facts, as have a lot of other people. It is you who denies them.

This bird is 250kg, this gaur is 400+kgs

Yes, and since when it hunting a large artiodactyl the same as killing another predator in a fight? By that logic, shouldn’t sumatran tigers easily be able to kill siberian tigers, since those are well within the size range of prey they can kill?
That gaur→ doesn’t even look particularly big, certainly not more than 3 times the tiger’s own weight, and yet it took the tiger a precise throat bite and a long struggle to subdue it. Feline macriphagous qualities are impressive, but by no means unparalelled.

The feat of the komodo dragon in a video posted earlier for example is comparable, the difference is merely that it wasn’t in need of holding onto its prey item, because its eviscerating dentition and venom took care of that.

And regardless of that, the size of the prey an animal can take doesn’t automatically relate to that animal’s capability of fighting a predator of the same size, otherwise, how the hell would gaur be challenging prey?

There is no way this 2 legged bird can compete with this cat, sorry bud.

I must repeat myself; if that’S your opinion, the so be it. But don’t complain nobody is gonna take you seriously.

[pckts]

Hence why I said the gaur was around 400kgs and Raja was estimated at 250kg. Not even double rajas size, so not sure where you got "3xs more than the tigers weight".
You say it was a "long struggle" yet from the moment raja attacks till the moment the Gaur is dead, it literally takes less than 2 minutes, about. That is the furthest thing from a "struggle."

But we obviously don't agree, so0, on to the next debate.

[pckts]

Apr 11, 2014 2:35:11 GMT 5 Runic said:

Apr 11, 2014 2:01:12 GMT 5 pckts said:

Once again, how many animals have been taking bites out of the blue whale? It has bite marks all over its body, and whale carcasses quickly become feeding frenzies amongst sharks. Lastly the whale is not dead and the shark taking small bites out of a whale is comparable the shark which has a 0 shaped mouth that will ride on another fish and remove bites from its body.
There has never been a single account of any shark killing a whale on its own. None.

About the wolf taking on a musk ox, I never said wolves could not take down a musk ox. But there is a HUGE difference between a musk ox and a Gaur or Rhino or Elephant.
BTW, the story you presented needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. The only picture they were able to use was one with a wolf and ox carcass. But if the fight lasted for the hour or so that is alleged, then why do they not have a actual photo of the event?

This shows you are wrong and are thus resorting to using pathetic go arounds to keep from admitting you're wrong.

- You said only big cats and polar bear kill things larger than themselves. I just showed you how incorrect that statement was. Now you're going to say there's a difference between a musk ox and a gaur? Who cares!? Musk ox are over 5x the size of wolves yet lone wolves have killed them. Your comment is invalid.

- I just gave you the entire account with THE PICTURE of the wolf next to a dead musk ox further voiding your statement. Are you calling a well known scientifical documented case a lie? Thats like me asking for a picture case of the tiger killing that female elephant.

Your comment "Only big cats and polar bear kill larger prey" is ignorant and incorrect. Simple as that.

And as for your birds can't contend with cats, funny you say that because in the documented incidents of birds of prey fighting similar size cats in life and death struggles, the birds the one with the winning track record not the cat.

I NEVER said sharks don't take chunks off of dying or dead whales. That shark did not make a kill, nor hunt the blue whale on its own. Nor was it the only one to feed off this blue whale.
Your desire to be right, overshadows common sense. Don't be ridicolous. I can show you tons of videos of whale carcasses being off of by tiny fish, or smaller sharks, I guess that means that they killed them, according to your logic.
Any way, this is pointless to debate with you.

[pckts]

fed*

[Infinity Blade]

Um, he said "3x bigger" because that can be possible with tiger and gaur individuals. He never said you claimed that, his point was that it wasn't that big, thus it's probably not a very good representation.

[Runic]

Apr 12, 2014 0:09:00 GMT 5 pckts said:

Apr 11, 2014 2:35:11 GMT 5 Runic said:

This shows you are wrong and are thus resorting to using pathetic go arounds to keep from admitting you're wrong.

- You said only big cats and polar bear kill things larger than themselves. I just showed you how incorrect that statement was. Now you're going to say there's a difference between a musk ox and a gaur? Who cares!? Musk ox are over 5x the size of wolves yet lone wolves have killed them. Your comment is invalid.

- I just gave you the entire account with THE PICTURE of the wolf next to a dead musk ox further voiding your statement. Are you calling a well known scientifical documented case a lie? Thats like me asking for a picture case of the tiger killing that female elephant.

Your comment "Only big cats and polar bear kill larger prey" is ignorant and incorrect. Simple as that.

And as for your birds can't contend with cats, funny you say that because in the documented incidents of birds of prey fighting similar size cats in life and death struggles, the birds the one with the winning track record not the cat.

I NEVER said sharks don't take chunks off of dying or dead whales. That shark did not make a kill, nor hunt the blue whale on its own. Nor was it the only one to feed off this blue whale.
Your desire to be right, overshadows common sense. Don't be ridicolous. I can show you tons of videos of whale carcasses being off of by tiny fish, or smaller sharks, I guess that means that they killed them, according to your logic.
Any way, this is pointless to debate with you.

You quoted the wrong person cupcake. I was addressing your taken with a grain of salt part

[pckts]

Apr 12, 2014 0:47:48 GMT 5 Runic said:

Apr 12, 2014 0:09:00 GMT 5 pckts said:

I NEVER said sharks don't take chunks off of dying or dead whales. That shark did not make a kill, nor hunt the blue whale on its own. Nor was it the only one to feed off this blue whale.
Your desire to be right, overshadows common sense. Don't be ridicolous. I can show you tons of videos of whale carcasses being off of by tiny fish, or smaller sharks, I guess that means that they killed them, according to your logic.
Any way, this is pointless to debate with you.

You quoted the wrong person cupcake. I was addressing your taken with a grain of salt part

What??

Ausar the Vile... How is Raja taking down a animal double his size in 2 minutes, not a good representation of my argument?
 Does he have to take down a adult Elephant in 2 minutes before you consider it a "a good representation?"

[Runic]

Apr 12, 2014 2:41:03 GMT 5 pckts said:

Apr 12, 2014 0:47:48 GMT 5 Runic said:

You quoted the wrong person cupcake. I was addressing your taken with a grain of salt part

What??

Ausar the Vile... How is Raja taking down a animal double his size in 2 minutes, not a good representation of my argument?
 Does he have to take down a adult Elephant in 2 minutes before you consider it a "a good representation?"

You quoted me talking about something with whales and sharks. Something theropod was talking about not me.

[Runic]

Apr 12, 2014 0:47:48 GMT 5 Runic said:

Apr 12, 2014 0:09:00 GMT 5 pckts said:

I NEVER said sharks don't take chunks off of dying or dead whales. That shark did not make a kill, nor hunt the blue whale on its own. Nor was it the only one to feed off this blue whale.
Your desire to be right, overshadows common sense. Don't be ridicolous. I can show you tons of videos of whale carcasses being off of by tiny fish, or smaller sharks, I guess that means that they killed them, according to your logic.
Any way, this is pointless to debate with you.

You quoted the wrong person cupcake. I was addressing your taken with a grain of salt part

^ see

Wtf why is it not quoting the other part?

[theropod]

pckts: Well, how is an eagle killing something 10 times its own weight not a good representation of MY point? And don’t start again with that "but eagles can fly, that’s sooo unfair!" story, it doesn’t change anything.
There are tons of other animals that are just as adept as macropredators as cats are, how they do it is irrelevant as long as they do it.
So just stop being so focused on that, its not as if doing it like a cat was to only way that counted. The facts are, that other animals can and do kill animals just as big both in relative AND in absolute terms.

Did you even check the lenght of the video you posted yourself? It takes well over 2 minutes for the tiger to subdue that gaur, it grabs it by the throat shortly after 01:00 and stays there till the end of the footage.

In any case, it had to hang on for an extended period of time, it did not rely on a damaging bite but on a precision-bite to close the windpipe, which brings us back to my initial point; just because cats have the ability to hang onto their prey animals’ throats until they collapse, that doesn’t make other animals inferior to them.
You should by now have seen multiple examples that should have made you comprehend that other animals don’t do it the way cats do, simply because they do not have to, because their weaponery functions differently.

Can you give me a reliable report of a tiger killing an adult elephant? I know how lions do it, and for sure that approach won’t work for a solitary animal.