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Post by creature386 on Apr 27, 2014 19:09:58 GMT 5
Can you give me a reliable report of a tiger killing an adult elephant? I know how lions do it, and for sure that approach won’t work for a solitary animal. From that, I guess theropod wants to see single tigers killing rhinos. Your source used the plural all the time. Sure, in one occurrence it were the calves, but they were already grown and probably therefore capable of helping their mother. Furthermore, your source on elephant predation agrees with theropod: Accounts of actual adult elephants and rhinos taken by lone tigers ARE a rarity. Several of your accounts even elaborate on how rare these ocurrences are, contradicting some others (which I presume are likely a bit sensationalistic). I have no position here, but I think there was some misinterpretation. |
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Post by theropod on Apr 27, 2014 19:25:25 GMT 5
I was actually interested in seeing some actual verified accounts of single tigers killing adult elephants, and, more importantly, how they do it. Hence my reference to lions, they overcome the elephant’s strenght by sheer numbers.
His accounts have provided some clarity in both regards; it seems to occur, but only very rarely (looking at them, most of them don’t actually involve a single tiger killing an adult elephant). From what I saw the tigers simply cause exanguination to the elephant with their claws and teeth, which sometimes leads to fatal injuries and the elephant’s death later on. this also leads me to believe the elephants in question must have been relatively small specimens, ones on which a single tiger could realistically inflict such injuries.
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Post by Runic on Apr 27, 2014 19:26:18 GMT 5
^ this guy. Lets play your game. I'd like pictures of a tiger killing a rhino or elephant please! Play my game??? LOL You mean providing actual first hand accounts, then not denying them when they don't say what you want? Like posting the actual photographers account of the eagles failed attack on the pronghorn? Or the other one about the Sika Deer being a youngster? haha So you won't accept those, but you expect me to believe that you will accept these? So once again Trouble for rhino from poacher and Bengal tiger The rhino is being hounded by predators, and not only of the two-legged kind. Royal Bengal tigers, which usually prey on baby rhinos, have begun killing adult ones in Kaziranga National Park since the last fortnight. Alarmed by this development, a team of experts from the Wildlife Institute of India (WII), Dehradun, will arrive at the national park tomorrow on a weeklong visit to survey the “phenomenon”. Authorities at Kaziranga National Park have also informed the chief conservator of forests of the new trend. Tigers killed 20 rhinos at Kaziranga last year, while this year eight rhinos have fallen prey to the big cats. “The worrying part is that tigers have started killing full grown rhinos. Earlier it was only the calves the tigers used to attack but now the full grown rhinos are being targeted,” said Bankim Sharma, the divisional forest official of the park. Last evening, three tigers, probably a mother and her two grown calves, attacked an adult rhino near the East Haldhibari anti-poaching camp in the Kohora range of the park. “It must have taken several hours for the tigers to nail the rhino. The entire area looked like a war zone with crushed grass and plants. The rhino had probably given up when it got stuck in the mud in a nearby water body,” the forest official said. Forest officials later retrieved the rhino’s horn. On February 26, a pregnant rhino was killed by tigers at Rutikhowa beel under Bagori range. Gunin Saikia, another forest at Kaziranga, said there have been no instances of tigers attacking full grown rhinos till now. Saikia said female rhinos generally venture out of the park along with their calves at night to escape from tiger attacks, since rhino calves are easy prey for tigers. “But tigers always keep away from full grown rhinos,” he said. The divisional forest official said male rhinos usually stay alone and tigers are finding it easier to prey on them than buffaloes, which stay in large groups. There has been an increase in tiger population in the park, which could be another reason for the attacks on rhinos, he said. According to the last census conducted in 2000, 86 rhinos were found in Kaziranga. “There is no doubt that the figure has gone up since then,” the divisional forest official said. www.telegraphindia.com/1080313/jsp/northeast/story_9012303.jspPROOF of Tigers preying on full grown Rhinos. (one of many accounts you can use) 3) A 20-year-old female elephant has been killed by a tiger in the Corbett Tiger Reserve (CTR), a forest official said. The half-eaten body of the pachyderm was found by a forest patrolling team on Friday morning, Uttarakhand Chief Wildlife Warden Srikant Chandola said. ‘Rare incident' “The killing of elephant calves by a tiger is a common incident in jungles, but this is a very rare incident when the tiger has attacked and killed an adolescent elephant,” he added. www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article1134163.eceNow proof of a Elephant being preyed upon. One of many, as well. animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/3273/Tiger-Predation#.U1gNg1cysygSo I get called out, I provide actual proof. You guys use a pronghorn instance where the pronghorn got away and try to pass it as comparable. I see no pictures of it in action. . . LOL so by your logic it never happened! Karmas a B**** ain't it? Don't contradict your own thinking. It makes you look stupid |
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Post by creature386 on Apr 27, 2014 19:30:06 GMT 5
I was actually interested in seeing some actual verified accounts of single tigers killing adult elephants, and, more importantly, how they do it. Hence my reference to lions, they overcome the elephant’s strenght by sheer numbers. Not to mention, according to Wild Cats of the World, the calves lions kill solitarily normally weigh roughly a ton. Even assuming that the tiger can kill up to 50% heavier prey than the lion, it is still on par with the eagle, as the ratio of 4 to 30 kg and 200 to 1,500 kg is the same. |
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pckts
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Post by pckts on Apr 29, 2014 2:22:04 GMT 5
Play my game??? LOL You mean providing actual first hand accounts, then not denying them when they don't say what you want? Like posting the actual photographers account of the eagles failed attack on the pronghorn? Or the other one about the Sika Deer being a youngster? haha So you won't accept those, but you expect me to believe that you will accept these? So once again Trouble for rhino from poacher and Bengal tiger The rhino is being hounded by predators, and not only of the two-legged kind. Royal Bengal tigers, which usually prey on baby rhinos, have begun killing adult ones in Kaziranga National Park since the last fortnight. Alarmed by this development, a team of experts from the Wildlife Institute of India (WII), Dehradun, will arrive at the national park tomorrow on a weeklong visit to survey the “phenomenon”. Authorities at Kaziranga National Park have also informed the chief conservator of forests of the new trend. Tigers killed 20 rhinos at Kaziranga last year, while this year eight rhinos have fallen prey to the big cats. “The worrying part is that tigers have started killing full grown rhinos. Earlier it was only the calves the tigers used to attack but now the full grown rhinos are being targeted,” said Bankim Sharma, the divisional forest official of the park. Last evening, three tigers, probably a mother and her two grown calves, attacked an adult rhino near the East Haldhibari anti-poaching camp in the Kohora range of the park. “It must have taken several hours for the tigers to nail the rhino. The entire area looked like a war zone with crushed grass and plants. The rhino had probably given up when it got stuck in the mud in a nearby water body,” the forest official said. Forest officials later retrieved the rhino’s horn. On February 26, a pregnant rhino was killed by tigers at Rutikhowa beel under Bagori range. Gunin Saikia, another forest at Kaziranga, said there have been no instances of tigers attacking full grown rhinos till now. Saikia said female rhinos generally venture out of the park along with their calves at night to escape from tiger attacks, since rhino calves are easy prey for tigers. “But tigers always keep away from full grown rhinos,” he said. The divisional forest official said male rhinos usually stay alone and tigers are finding it easier to prey on them than buffaloes, which stay in large groups. There has been an increase in tiger population in the park, which could be another reason for the attacks on rhinos, he said. According to the last census conducted in 2000, 86 rhinos were found in Kaziranga. “There is no doubt that the figure has gone up since then,” the divisional forest official said. www.telegraphindia.com/1080313/jsp/northeast/story_9012303.jspPROOF of Tigers preying on full grown Rhinos. (one of many accounts you can use) 3) A 20-year-old female elephant has been killed by a tiger in the Corbett Tiger Reserve (CTR), a forest official said. The half-eaten body of the pachyderm was found by a forest patrolling team on Friday morning, Uttarakhand Chief Wildlife Warden Srikant Chandola said. ‘Rare incident' “The killing of elephant calves by a tiger is a common incident in jungles, but this is a very rare incident when the tiger has attacked and killed an adolescent elephant,” he added. www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article1134163.eceNow proof of a Elephant being preyed upon. One of many, as well. animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/3273/Tiger-Predation#.U1gNg1cysygSo I get called out, I provide actual proof. You guys use a pronghorn instance where the pronghorn got away and try to pass it as comparable. I see no pictures of it in action. . . LOL so by your logic it never happened! Karmas a B**** ain't it? Don't contradict your own thinking. It makes you look stupid If only I posted actual links with images, accounts and the stories. O wait......... I did. You're flaunting your ignorance. Tigers hunt down calf, young elephant "Tigers have hunted down two elephants, including a young one, last month in Kerala forests. The killing of the young elephant at Sairandhri in the Silent Valley National Park has caught the wildlife experts by surprise as tigers are known to target mostly cubs. The nearly seven-year-old tusker was hunted down by the tiger near the trek path that runs through the forest area." www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/tigers-hunt-down-calf-young-elephant/article4579517.ece  Jim Corbetts account of two tigers killing a elephant. Tiger urine to scare killer elephant Forest officials in eastern India have advised villagers to stock tiger urine and excrement to scare away a killer elephant and his marauding herd. The elephant, named after al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, and his herd have trampled seven people to death in the past three months in Jharkhand. Forest officials say elephants stay away from areas frequented by tigers. Humans and elephants have come into greater conflict in recent years as man encroaches on jungle territories. Jhrakhand forest officials said they would collect the tiger excreta from the state's zoos and distribute it to the villagers in areas where Laden's herd is active. Declining "Elephants usually don't venture into the areas where tigers live. And the elephants can smell from far away places," district forest officer Paritosh Upadhayay told the BBC. Tribal villagers in areas where the rogue elephants are active have already begun going into the jungle to collect tiger excreta. Forest officials have also asked them not to store mahua, a local brew, inside their huts as Laden and his herd have attacked homes storing the alcohol in the past Forest officials have also asked them not to venture into forests after dusk, and sought the installation of solar powered lights in the affected villages. "These instructions have worked a bit as the numbers of deaths have been reduced," said Mr Upadhayay. The governments of Jharkhand and neighbouring West Bengal state have been working jointly to trap Laden and his herd, but the killer elephant is proving to be elusive. Officials said about 400 people had died of elephant attacks and more than 700 had been injured in the last six years in Jharkhand. About 10 elephants have been killed by poachers in the area during the same period, officials say. According to a census conducted in May, the number of elephants in Jharkhand has declined from 772 to 622 animals. A killer elephant, also named after the al-Qaeda leader, was shot dead in north-eastern Assam state in May last year. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7158776.stm1.)"Though other jungle inhabitants seldom interfere with an elephant, a hungry tiger will not hesitate to attack a solitary animal. The tiger will never let go an opportunity to prey upon calves and juveniles. J.C. Daniel in his book, The Asian Elephant, gives a number of recorded instances of tiger predating even upon full-grown elephants. Col Kesri Singh, in his book: The Tiger Of Rajasthan, has given an instance of a fight between a tiger and a big tusker in Assam. "...Some three or four years ago a tiger, having killed a baby elephant, was attacked by a tusker. Instead of trying to get clean away the tiger came at the elephant from the flank or rear, and having got on to his back raked and tore at him with his claws. The fight went on for a long time, the tusker apparently trying to dislodge the tiger by running under and against trees. He seems to have succeeded in this at least once, but only for the tiger to recover and return to the attack...In the morning the area was examined and the story reconstructed from the copious signs left about the area. The aggressor had had the best of it, for the party found the remains of the elephant calf and the dead tuskers huge bulk, atrociously torn, but the tiger had disappeared." "Death by a Thousand Cuts". 2 Tigress kills elephant onlypunjab.com/fullstory2k5-insight-news-status-29-newsID-6008.htmlAn elephant is suspected to have died of wounds inflicted by the same tigress that attacked a man at the Corbett National Park in Uttaranchal. Park officials confirmed that the pachyderm, which was found dead Friday night, had fought with the tigress that had mauled a man at the Dhikala tourist complex on the previous night. According to a park official, "The elephant had been spotted with wounds, visibly inflicted by a tiger about five or six days back. "We were keeping track of the animal. Finally we found him lying dead in the forest quite close to the Dhikala complex." The elephant was found to have suffered multiple wounds on its trunk and it was amply evident that these were sustained in a battle with the tigress, which is suspected to have also suffered wounds. The tigress had been spotted with two cubs. These cubs are believed to have been with the mother during the fight with the elephant. Park officials were of the view that the elephant was unable to eat on account of the wounds on its trunk and therefore turned quite weak. Asked why officials did not tranquillise the elephant to treat its wounds, Uttaranchal chief wildlife warden C.K. Chandola told IANS: "It is usually preferred that animals living in their natural habitat find their own natural means to heal themselves. "No one thought that the wounds would prove fatal," he said. "Special teams had been detailed to keep track of the movements of the tigress to assess the nature and kind of wounds it had received in the fight with the elephant." While there is no evidence of the big cat turning into a man-eater, Chandola did not rule out the possibility. "Irreparable wounds or old age and infirmity can force a tiger to turn to man-eating. We have to keep a strict vigil." 6) Tiger kills mother, baby elephant 2006-11-23 - BHUBANESWAR, India "It was a fight that even surprised the Forest officials of Similipal Tiger Reserve (STR). A duel between a tiger and an elephant in which the big cat prevailed. The tiger reserve rarely has witnessed such incidents in the past although tigers are known to kill elephant calves. Every year, two or three calves are hunted by the tigers in the reserve." The full article can be accessed by clicking on Read full article (external link) and registering. www.elephant-news.com/index.php?id=1613 Tiger kills elephant in Corbett Reserve News » States » Other States Rishikesh (Uttarakhand), January 29, 2011 PTI A 20-year-old female elephant has been killed by a tiger in the Corbett Tiger Reserve (CTR), a forest official said. The half-eaten body of the pachyderm was found by a forest patrolling team on Friday morning, Uttarakhand Chief Wildlife Warden Srikant Chandola said. ‘Rare incident' “The killing of elephant calves by a tiger is a common incident in jungles, but this is a very rare incident when the tiger has attacked and killed an adolescent elephant,” he added. And once again, this is just a few. There are many more as well. All you have to do is a little research. |
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pckts
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Post by pckts on Apr 29, 2014 2:25:20 GMT 5
Elephant attacked and seriously injured by tiger STAFF WRITER 18:14 HRS IST Golaghat, Aug 14, 2009 (PTI) An elephant was attacked and seriously injured by a tiger in world-famous Kaziranga National Park (KNP), forest officials said today. The six-year-old female elephant was attacked by a tiger in the northern part of the Park and its hind legs were injured last night, KNP director S N Buragohain told PTI. The elephant, which had its ears torn apart in the incident, was being treated at the camp office of the Park where her condition was stated to be stable, he said. Buragohain said a new range situated to the North of the River Brahmaputra has been added into the park, increasing its total area to 859 sq km from 430 sq km earlier. Besides the newly added Northern range, the park earlier was divided into four range - Kohora, Bagori, Burapahar and Agaratoli -, Buragohain said. http://bigcatnews.blogspo...nd-injured-by-tiger.html 11) Treating an elephant that a tiger had attacked www.corkscrew-balloon.com/polo/95/img/injury.jpg(picture of elephant getting treated) Once again, here is a entire list! animalvsanimal.yuku.com/reply/9116/Tigers-with-Gaur#reply-9116 |
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pckts
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Post by pckts on Apr 30, 2014 1:48:42 GMT 5
I was actually interested in seeing some actual verified accounts of single tigers killing adult elephants, and, more importantly, how they do it. Hence my reference to lions, they overcome the elephant’s strenght by sheer numbers. Not to mention, according to Wild Cats of the World, the calves lions kill solitarily normally weigh roughly a ton. Even assuming that the tiger can kill up to 50% heavier prey than the lion, it is still on par with the eagle, as the ratio of 4 to 30 kg and 200 to 1,500 kg is the same. Tigers kill prey much larger than a ton. That is a fact. But once again, eagle killing a sika deer youngster is nothing close to a tiger 250kg killing a 1500kg animal. The sika deer fawn is is the largest alleged kill of a eagle and there is still no proof that any kill was even made. The sika deer is most likely in the 40lb range and the eagle is in the 10-15lb range. That is 4 to 1 compared to 6 to 1 for the tiger. 2ndly these are confirmed kills with actual proof. The eagles largest confirmed kill is not more speculative and if we are going off actual evidence of the largest eagle alive and the prey that it kills than The Harpy eagle which was recorded for longer than a year, never killed a animal larger than 8kg.  Lastly, this debate is about a tiger vs a animal that cannot fly. So it isn't even comparable to a eagle. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Apr 30, 2014 1:59:51 GMT 5
It doesn't need to fly or take large prey to hold its own against a tiger.
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Post by creature386 on Apr 30, 2014 19:41:25 GMT 5
pcktsI think if the paper theropod linked said 4 kg eagles kill up to 30 kg, we can go with that. OK, it didn't say they do it commonly (so the argument of tigers rarely killing large elephants/rhinos doesn't apply), so I will give you that.
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Post by theropod on Apr 30, 2014 20:05:52 GMT 5
By your logic, it never happened, as Runic already pointed out. You have been unable to show us a picture of a tiger attacking an elephant. I’d personally love to see some. But its not that I am doubting your information that tigers can kill adult elephants. Just saying they are rare ocurrences, as your own accounts prove, if you actually have a look at them. You on the other hand seem to deny information on eagle’s predatory ecology that was not published in newspapers, but in actual scientific publications! and even if you get the photographic evidence you are so keen on, you call the eagle actually killing the animal into doubt. Doesn’t that seem a little strange to you yourself? Because that sika deer "youngster" is far from being the biggest kill recorded for golden eagles, which have been reported (and that in actual scientific publications, not newspapers!) to kill adult sheep, reindeer, mule deer and pronghorn, as well as calves. Not to mention that bird of prey’s capabilities at subduing larger predators appear to be unmatched in the extant world, or do you know any other (non-venomous) 5kg animal that could kill a 13.5kg+ coyote, feral dog or wolf? That is a lie. Considering the remains of the deer were found, a kill must have been made at some point The reindeer is very likely in the 50-100kg range and the eagle in the 5kg range. I have already posted a study that very clearly explained that they had several cases of adult female reindeer that succumbed to golden eagle attacks. Absolutely comparable to a tiger killing a typical indian elephant. Feral dogs and wolves killed by golden eagles can be both relatively and absolutely bigger than that weight you hypothetise for the sika deer. The same applies to prey items recorded for african eagles. Just not the kind of proof you would require for an eagle, right? How often will we have to repeat this point? give me a figure please! |
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pckts
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Post by pckts on May 1, 2014 2:13:24 GMT 5
pcktsI think if the paper theropod linked said 4 kg eagles kill up to 30 kg, we can go with that. OK, it didn't say they do it commonly (so the argument of tigers rarely killing large elephants/rhinos doesn't apply), so I will give you that. Except I showed over 10 plus verified accounts of tigers taking rhinos and elephant and posted a link with tons more. Compared to no verified accounts for eagles taking 30kg animals, which have 0 verified accounts. One is purely speculation and the other is actual data. |
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pckts
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Post by pckts on May 1, 2014 2:18:28 GMT 5
Therapod, you are pretty delusional bud. You just said the Sika young Female (no antlers as proof!) Is in the "100kg range" hahaha Ya, how do you get that # when female sika get up to 50kg at most? females weigh 45–50 kg (99–110 lb), en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sika_deerOnce again, that is a young deer, so obviously not full grown. And then you want to compare a young deer witch was never confirmed as being killed to a confirmed multitude of tiger kills on adult rhino and elephant? First you say Tigers don't kill rhino or elephant, then you say you want accounts, next you want pics, then vids etc.... All you are doing is trying to stall and switch your words around constantly. Proof is in the pudding. End of debate on this end. |
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Post by Runic on May 1, 2014 2:25:38 GMT 5
pcktsI think if the paper theropod linked said 4 kg eagles kill up to 30 kg, we can go with that. OK, it didn't say they do it commonly (so the argument of tigers rarely killing large elephants/rhinos doesn't apply), so I will give you that. Except I showed over 10 plus verified accounts of tigers taking rhinos and elephant and posted a link with tons more. Compared to no verified accounts for eagles taking 30kg animals, which have 0 verified accounts. One is purely speculation and the other is actual data. Picture footage of a golden eagle gutting and killing a pronghorn antelope. /thread and before you go about whining its a female look at its head, it has horns. |
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pckts
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Post by pckts on May 1, 2014 3:01:55 GMT 5
Except I showed over 10 plus verified accounts of tigers taking rhinos and elephant and posted a link with tons more. Compared to no verified accounts for eagles taking 30kg animals, which have 0 verified accounts. One is purely speculation and the other is actual data. Picture footage of a golden eagle gutting and killing a pronghorn antelope. /thread and before you go about whining its a female look at its head, it has horns. Really, again? You do know we already posted this and you do know that the Pronghorn got away? Lol.  And for more proof, this is the last image of the entire event. imgur.com/a/eYZxh |
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Post by theropod on May 1, 2014 3:03:34 GMT 5
Therapod, you are pretty delusional bud. You just said the Sika young Female (no antlers as proof!) Is in the "100kg range" hahaha So sad. I explicitely wrote reindeer were in that size range. Learn to read and differentiate between cervids, really. I’m loosing patience here, this can’t go on forever! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReindeerEven if the animals in question were the smallest subspecies of reindeer→ (which they were not by the seem of it), they would have been over ten times the eagle’s body mass. Adult female reindeer in general→ are around 100kg. Be sure to read it this time:  www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3783664?uid=3737528&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103719946331Funny enough, that one page already falsifies you on several points. And yes, I did post that earlier, at least two times. Being typical mammals in this regard, adult reindeers are also fully grown reindeers. I think a confirmed number of caribou, pronghorn, various deer species, goats, sheep and cattle calves is more than just "comparable", yes. Check out this paper→. If you don’t have acess, I can send you a pdf. Once again, this is something I posted previously that you ignored, so please don’t do that again. It lists 127 cases of predation on mule deer, 2 on white-tailed deer, 24 on barren ground caribou (supposedly adults were among those, judging from the data on norwegian reindeer), 21 on pronghorn, and a total of 130 on wild and domestic sheep and goats, as well as 4 on calves and 7 on unidentified deer. A fairly impressive collection of accounts of eagle predation on animals that outweigh any eagle. And that’s just for North America. If you find a mauled corpse in your garden, do you also require further proof for it having been killed? And please, look at that multitude of tiger kills again. You’ll be sorely disappointed since half of your accounts don’t actually involve a tiger killing any large, adult herbivore, but rather injuring it or killing a youngster… Show me where I did that please. I wanted to see accounts of how they did it, because I had (and have!) a healthy degree of scepticism regarding your very enthusiastic claims–which is because a single tiger killing an adult elephant or rhino is an extraordinary feet, as your accounts prove. That has been clarified substantially, thank you. Yes, that’s because I think it is a good thing to back up one’s claims, instead of just making them. If you come here and ask "How can predatory birds even compare to a cat?" in such provocative manner, what I expect is justification for raising that question, because frankly it appears quite clear a 300kg predatory bird with a 70cm skull can, by default, compare to another terrestrial carnivore its size. Of course I want pics, everyone even remotely interested in tiger ecology would love to see those pics. But I think you are confusing that with requiring pictures in order to believe something that’s well-documented. I don’t do that, I was just making fun of you doing so with the eagle and other animals, but not with the tiger apparently. the following quote is from you, not me! If you have any, I’d love to see them!  It’s definitely not me who’s delusional bud! |
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