Cape Buffalo vs. Spanish Fighting Bull

[velesoid]

Doesn't matter.

Cape buffalo can reach OVER 900KG

very rarely, just like the bull can

The weights shown are what are used.

unless they are incorrect

I don't see you complaining about near maximum-maximum sizes versus averages anywhere else.

because i have not posted in many threads and this one specifically butchers the facts about these two animals

And yet there are photos in this thread of buffalo engaging Rhinoceros, which are certainly larger and more powerful than any bear.

engaging is nowhere near the same fighting to the death, simple as that. a guard dog might briefly engage a leopard or cougar and scare it off but would get its asss kicked in an actual fight, wild animals have self-preservation instinct that has been severely dulled out in fighting breeds.

not to mention that the rhino looked small but was still winning

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 0:36:55 GMT 5 velesoid said:

Doesn't matter.

Cape buffalo can reach OVER 900KG

very rarely, just like the bull can

But they can.

The weights shown are what are used.

unless they are incorrect

WHich they aren't

I don't see you complaining about near maximum-maximum sizes versus averages anywhere else.

 

specifically butchers the facts about these two animals

Info's correct, but whatever floats your boat.

And yet there are photos in this thread of buffalo engaging Rhinoceros, which are certainly larger and more powerful than any bear.

engaging is nowhere near the same fighting to the death, simple as that. a guard dog might briefly engage a leopard or cougar and scare it off but would get its asss kicked in an actual fight, wild animals have self-preservation instinct that has been severely dulled out in fighting breeds.

not to mention that the rhino looked small but was still winning

The fact that the buffalo has the gall to challenge the rhino says a lot about the animal.

[velesoid]

But they can.

but its not average for either

WHich they aren't

which they are

Info's correct, but whatever floats your boat

its not, the max weight of bulls is off by 200 kg

The fact that the buffalo has the gall to challenge the rhino says a lot about the animal

in the same way a sheep dog might be able to challenge a non hungry mountain lion. its just not comparable

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 0:56:15 GMT 5 velesoid said:

But they can.

but its not average for either

Never said it was. Sizes are still correct

WHich they aren't

which they are

Nope

Info's correct, but whatever floats your boat

its not, the max weight of bulls is off by 200 kg

Max weight for bulls is therefore not included

The fact that the buffalo has the gall to challenge the rhino says a lot about the animal

in the same way a sheep dog might be able to challenge a non hungry mountain lion. its just not comparable

Sheep dog could actually win.

[velesoid]

Never said it was. Sizes are still correct

nope

Max weight for bulls is therefore not included

same goes for bufflao then, its 680 kg vs 600-650 for a bull, very small margin

Sheep dog could actually win.

it could but it does not, even the largest LGBs like alabai and kangal get killed pretty often by leopards, leopards smaller than them. for this comparison we would have to use an even smaller dog like sharplaninac or kuvasz and those would stand 0 chance

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 1:52:38 GMT 5 velesoid said:

Never said it was. Sizes are still correct

nope

Yep, according to size ranges

Max weight for bulls is therefore not included

same goes for bufflao then, its 680 kg vs 600-650 for a bull, very small margin

Not according to the stats set by OP.

Sheep dog could actually win.

it could but it does not, even the largest LGBs like alabai and kangal get killed pretty often by leopards, leopards smaller than them. for this comparison we would have to use an even smaller dog like sharplaninac or kuvasz and those would stand 0 chance

In a straight up fight or via ambush?

[velesoid]

Yep, according to size ranges

no, again, bulls get bigger than this

Not according to the stats set by OP.

opis not a word of god, this is a scientific animal board not "inaccuracies: the electric boogaloo"

In a straight up fight or via ambush?

straight up fight, i am pretty baffled by the fact you are not aware how often dogs become chow food for pantherine cats
cougars, who are generally seen as inferior to leopards can quite easily overpower and kill large north american wolves who in turn kill most dogs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXL_ALCRUcU
the cougar broke its neck

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 2:42:25 GMT 5 velesoid said:

Yep, according to size ranges

no, again, bulls get bigger than this

Yeah, but the fight here does not involve such a bull

Not according to the stats set by OP.

opis not a word of god, this is a scientific animal board not "inaccuracies: the electric boogaloo"

Until OP states otherwise, those are the statistics that are used in this fight. You can make your OWN AVA with them at parity, but here this is between a bull and buffalo as set by OP. Not my fault you can't understand that and won't accept that.

In a straight up fight or via ambush?

straight up fight, i am pretty baffled by the fact you are not aware how often dogs become chow food for pantherine cats
cougars, who are generally seen as inferior to leopards can quite easily overpower and kill large north american wolves who in turn kill most dogs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXL_ALCRUcU
the cougar broke its neck

IK many dogs get et by big cats, but most are killed in ambush (not that many dogs stand a chance agianst such beasts). There is no evidence that the wolf fought the cougar face to face as opposed to being jumped by the cougar.

[velesoid]

Yeah, but the fight here does not involve such a bull

Until OP states otherwise, those are the statistics that are used in this fight. You can make your OWN AVA with them at parity, but here this is between a bull and buffalo as set by OP. Not my fault you can't understand that and won't accept that.

the OP is made only to collaborate basic facts about the animal, its just not correct here. nothing in the OP says that we cant use a larger bull, its just an incorrect info.

the OP is also -looks- incomplete.

IK many dogs get et by big cats, but most are killed in ambush (not that many dogs stand a chance agianst such beasts).

and many more are killed face to face, there is a reason we have no documented cases of dogs killing large cats 1 v 1

There is no evidence that the wolf fought the cougar face to face as opposed to being jumped by the cougar.

except there is, ambushing another apex predator is just not possible, wolves have evolved sense of smell and hearing which allows them to steer away from larger predators such as bears and cougars. furthermore cougars do not hunt wolves as food either,so this was most likely a territorial dispute

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 3:11:37 GMT 5 velesoid said:

Yeah, but the fight here does not involve such a bull

Until OP states otherwise, those are the statistics that are used in this fight. You can make your OWN AVA with them at parity, but here this is between a bull and buffalo as set by OP. Not my fault you can't understand that and won't accept that.

the OP is made only to collaborate basic facts about the animal, its just not correct here. nothing in the OP says that we cant use a larger bull, its just an incorrect info.

the OP is also -looks- incomplete.

The OP states what weights are being used in the fight. I am going to go with what the OP says because those are the weights being used in this battle until otherwise is said. Furthermore, almost all sources I can find state the bull weighs 700KG at growth. There is nothing wrong with this, as this is an accepted weight, as is the 900KG for the buffalo. If a weight is specified for an animal, it is then used unless OP or someone with actual authority says otherwise, hence despite getting to over 400KG we are not using the maximum weight for the Nile Crocodile in NC vs. Aucasaurus. The OP specifies 2 crocodiles of 40oKG.

IK many dogs get et by big cats, but most are killed in ambush (not that many dogs stand a chance agianst such beasts).

and many more are killed face to face, there is a reason we have no documented cases of dogs killing large cats 1 v 1

To quote you, "Citation Needed."

There is no evidence that the wolf fought the cougar face to face as opposed to being jumped by the cougar.

except there is, ambushing another apex predator is just not possible, wolves have evolved sense of smell and hearing which allows them to steer away from larger predators such as bears and cougars. furthermore cougars do not hunt wolves as food either,so this was most likely a territorial dispute

Except you can-just because the wolf has fantastic senses does not mean it cannot be ambushed. Citation needed on cougars never hunting wolves for food.

[velesoid]

The OP states what weights are being used in the fight.

no, this is not how it works. there is average, below average and above-average weights for animals. making 700 kg bull vs 900 kg buffalo is average against upper roof. that is just plain unfair toward one animal

If a weight is specified for an animal, it is then used unless OP or someone with actual authority says otherwise, hence despite getting to over 400KG we are not using the maximum weight for the Nile Crocodile in NC vs. Aucasaurus. The OP specifies 2 crocodiles of 40oKG.

thankfully the OP does not specify the weight of either animals here so both could be 600 or 700 kg, making it a parity, hence why your point is moot

To quote you, "Citation Needed."

you are asking me to prove a negative, not how stuff works

Except you can-just because the wolf has fantastic senses does not mean it cannot be ambushed.

it might get ambushed 1 out of 10 times? and even then an ambush is not an instant win

Citation needed on cougars never hunting wolves for food.

you need to be a very specific sort of dumb or uneducated to lack the understanding of why wild predators do not hunt other similar sized predators. ding dong, its because even the smallest injuries can lead to infection, which further leads to starvation because the animal cannot hunt. this is especially the case with solitary predators like cougars and leopards.

This is the whole point behind self preservation instinct and why some fighting animals needed to have it artificially bred out of them. 

while lions, wild dogs or wolves sometimes have the luxury of going after dangerous prey because the pack will take care of them even if injured.

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 3:53:55 GMT 5 velesoid said:

The OP states what weights are being used in the fight.

no, this is not how it works. there is average, below average and above-average weights for animals. making 700 kg bull vs 900 kg buffalo is average against upper roof. that is just plain unfair toward one animal

Oh well then.

If a weight is specified for an animal, it is then used unless OP or someone with actual authority says otherwise, hence despite getting to over 400KG we are not using the maximum weight for the Nile Crocodile in NC vs. Aucasaurus. The OP specifies 2 crocodiles of 40oKG.

thankfully the OP does not specify the weight of either animals here so both could be 600 or 700 kg, making it a parity, hence why your point is moot

But we could use a 900 KG animal as well, meaning the Buffalo has a better chance of winning.

To quote you, "Citation Needed."

you are asking me to prove a negative, not how stuff works

Don't make baseless claims then.

Except you can-just because the wolf has fantastic senses does not mean it cannot be ambushed.

it might get ambushed 1 out of 10 times? and even then an ambush is not an instant win

Citation needed

Citation needed on cougars never hunting wolves for food.

you need to be a very specific sort of dumb or uneducated to lack the understanding of why wild predators do not hunt other similar sized predators. ding dong, its because even the smallest injuries can lead to infection, which further leads to starvation because the animal cannot hunt. this is especially the case with solitary predators like cougars and leopards.

Just because predators usually do not go after other predators for food does not mean they will never do it.

This is the whole point behind self preservation instinct and why some fighting animals needed to have it artificially bred out of them. 

while lions, wild dogs or wolves sometimes have the luxury of going after dangerous prey because the pack will take care of them even if injured.

Which again does not prove the bull would win nor that cougars do not hunt wolves out of predation.

[velesoid]

But we could use a 900 KG animal as well, meaning the Buffalo has a better chance of winning.

and we could also use a 900 kg bull

Don't make baseless claims then.

no no, i know you are not the brightest but try thinking. there are no reliable cases of dogs killing big cats 1 v 1, if you want to claim otherwise, find one.

Citation needed

i do not think you know what that word means.

Just because predators usually do not go after other predators for food does not mean they will never do it.

F109 raised several litters of bouncing kittens to independence, all the while traversing the highest, most rugged terrain our study area in northwest Wyoming had to offer. She survived encounters with bears and wolves, as well as encounters with humans and bull elk. She endured bitter cold and landslides. She showed us exactly what a fortified den looks like (See A Fortress for Kittens). In 2013, she was the first and only mountain lion among those we’ve followed to successfully kill and consume a wolf (See Hunters or Hunted? Wolves Vs. Mountain Lions). Each winter, she also killed several bull elk, which can weigh greater than 700 lbs— more than 8 times her size. She was the first mountain lion we caught on video interacting socially with another mountain lion (See Solitary is not Asocial: Social Interactions Among Mountain Lions), and in recent years she interacted with other mountain lions some 28 times. Over the 6 years we studied her, we gathered data on 195 prey she killed and consumed. Twenty of those kills provided us the opportunity to film and study vertebrate scavengers and document more mountain lion social interactions. F109 taught us what it means to be a successful mountain lion, and as we continue to analyze data and reflect upon our time in northwest Wyoming, she will continue to teach us more.

this litle cut out shows us just how rare it is for cougars to actually hunt wolves.

Which again does not prove the bull would win nor that cougars do not hunt wolves out of predation.

i mean, multiple advantages of the bull were already mentioned such as greater agility, straight pointing horns and gameness. you got anything or wanna concede?

[kekistani]

Feb 19, 2020 4:25:58 GMT 5 velesoid said:

But we could use a 900 KG animal as well, meaning the Buffalo has a better chance of winning.

and we could also use a 900 kg bull

900KG for bulls is not listed nor supported for this breed.

Don't make baseless claims then.

no no, i know you are not the brightest but try thinking. there are no reliable cases of dogs killing big cats 1 v 1, if you want to claim otherwise, find one.

I asked first. You made the more fabulous claim (dogs never win 1v1 with big cats). You supply your evidence first.

Citation needed

i

do not think you know what that word means.

Reference or source. You have provided neither.

Just because predators usually do not go after other predators for food does not mean they will never do it.

F109 raised several litters of bouncing kittens to independence, all the while traversing the highest, most rugged terrain our study area in northwest Wyoming had to offer. She survived encounters with bears and wolves, as well as encounters with humans and bull elk. She endured bitter cold and landslides. She showed us exactly what a fortified den looks like (See A Fortress for Kittens). In 2013, she was the first and only mountain lion among those we’ve followed to successfully kill and consume a wolf (See Hunters or Hunted? Wolves Vs. Mountain Lions). Each winter, she also killed several bull elk, which can weigh greater than 700 lbs— more than 8 times her size. She was the first mountain lion we caught on video interacting socially with another mountain lion (See Solitary is not Asocial: Social Interactions Among Mountain Lions), and in recent years she interacted with other mountain lions some 28 times. Over the 6 years we studied her, we gathered data on 195 prey she killed and consumed. Twenty of those kills provided us the opportunity to film and study vertebrate scavengers and document more mountain lion social interactions. F109 taught us what it means to be a successful mountain lion, and as we continue to analyze data and reflect upon our time in northwest Wyoming, she will continue to teach us more.

this litle cut out shows us just how rare it is for cougars to actually hunt wolves.

And yet my point still stands: predators such as the cougar will hunt other predators such as the wolf. I never said the occurance was common, only that it did happen.

Which again does not prove the bull would win nor that cougars do not hunt wolves out of predation.

i mean, multiple advantages of the bull were already mentioned such as greater agility, straight pointing horns and gameness. you got anything or wanna concede?

There are several posters before us who have pointed out the issues with your argument. The buffalo's size, toughness, and thicker hide are good advantages that help it greatly. I am not conceding. You can do whatever you want. I'll just continue.

[velesoid]

900KG for bulls is not listed nor supported for this breed.

they are, buffalos in the wild tend to not weight that much tho

I asked first. You made the more fabulous claim (dogs never win 1v1 with big cats). You supply your evidence first.

i know you are dumb, but i seriously cannot prove a negative. the whole point revolves around a lack of evidence or cases of dogs doing a certain thing.

And yet my point still stands: predators such as the cougar will hunt other predators such as the wolf. I never said the occurance was common, only that it did happen.

you have no point and never had it since the beginning of this thread

Reference or source. You have provided neither.

since you made a lot of claims since the start of this thread and gave 0 scientific evidence to back up an even singe one, nah, you are not getting jack shit

There are several posters before us who have pointed out the issues with your argument.

there was no reliable argument made in any of their posts

The buffalo's size

not a thing at average sizes

toughness

buzzword

thicker hide

prove that its hide is thicker

You can do whatever you want. I'll just continue

nice concession.