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Post by Grey on Oct 10, 2019 16:23:48 GMT 5
I'm simply dubious at the idea of the whale ramming head first on such a dangerous adversary, without taking into account the mobility of the shark. The whale while ramming would have its fins exposed as well.
At last, yes we don't have a real sample of Livyatan specimens (but more and more tooth material is described), but awaiting for more, it remains that there are good indications of some megalodons growing perhaps a good deal larger than the cetacean's material we have for it. The holotype skull width suggests 15 m while some meg teeth suggest dentitions belonging to sharks at least 20 m.
So I simply cannot vote for the whale while I report modified data in Pimiento's matrix with a number of Chilean megs potentially vetween 17 and 20 m.
At similar size, it is a draw. The whale has certain advantages but nothing decisive against an agressive predator that belongs to a lineage that evolved to tackle cetaceans since the KT extinction.
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Post by sam1 on Oct 10, 2019 16:32:38 GMT 5
Fair points, but I'll disagree that at parity it is 50:50, for the reasons I stated.
Your notion about the whale's fin is incorrect and irrelevant.
Incorrect because Sperm whales typically keep their fins folded, so do the dolphins while going at full speed, in order to minimize the drag.
And irrelevant because even if the fin gets bitten off, it's far from a life threatening loss for the whale.
It can keep swimming normally without it.
Whereas the shark is doomed in the same case.
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Post by theropod on Oct 10, 2019 16:53:14 GMT 5
So I assume you must have voted 50/50 then?
The largest relatively decent meg specimen is similar in size to the Livyatan holotype after all, everything else are just isolated teeth.
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Post by Grey on Oct 10, 2019 18:28:13 GMT 5
Numerous isolated large teeth that represent larger specimens.
Once the stem-physeteroid got a larger sample I will account for them as well.
No I have not voted yet waiting for more material and analysis but of I had to vote it would be for meg based on good hints of larger specimens.
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Post by Life on Oct 10, 2019 18:57:53 GMT 5
It's amazing how this thread keeps going around in circles.. Every meg supporter still, after all this arguing seems fixated on the biting contest premise. They keep ignoring the extreme likelihood that - primary intention of Liyatan would be to ram a shark - if it came to biting, the primary target would likely be the PECTORAL FIN of the shark. Here's a simple question to meg supporters - what happens if meg's pectoral fin is bitten off? Hmm. I have commented on this thread after a long time, and I wonder how this debate have lasted over 90 pages but I am not complaining. I believe that Megalodon featured thick and strong fins to facilitate its movements given its sheer size, to cope with risks involved in its mating practices, and also to cope with risks involved in big-game hunting. Behavioral considerations are also important; Megalodon learning from its experiences over time, and refining its hunting strategies accordingly. Nevertheless, Livyatan is a gigantic macropredator as well, and could ruin even a hardened fin with a well-positioned bite or two. Should this happen then Megalodon will have no choice but to retreat ( Livyatan succeeded in fending off the gigantic shark). Livyatan could also dissuade a Megalodon with ramming behavior but for short-term. As I have emphasized recently, it is in the best interest of Megalodon to avoid a prolonged confrontation with Livyatan and remain healthy for long-term (survival instincts). Therefore, Megalodon is very likely to end this fight swiftly by aiming for the chest cavity of the cetacean (assumption grounded in attacking patterns of Megalodon inferred from relevant fossil records). In order to pull this off, Megalodon might have to avoid being painted by the echolocation of Livyatan and surprise it from below or another angle of approach, but I am not sure if this level of precaution was 'absolutely necessary' since Megalodon featured an excellent mix of sheer size, raw power, senses, and killing apparatus, to challenge whales in ways a great white shark can never hope to. Aiming for the chest cavity, is an excellent attacking strategy, and very telling in the context of the intelligence aspect of Megalodon (a meaningful pointer). --- No fan of sharks, is asserting that this contest represents a mismatch in the favor of Megalodon, or Livyatan could not defeat Megalodon under any circumstances. Livyatan is easily among the most powerful macropredators to have ever existed, and the only known lifeform which could challenge even adult Megalodon in theory at least. I laugh at other suggestions though. I am just a voice of caution here. That we are talking about a macropredatory shark which literally evolved for big-game hunting and could slaughter whales in ways unlike any other shark, that our knowledge is limited. Livyatan - no matter how fearsome - is still a whale with same biological limitations that an experienced Megalodon could exploit to its advantage, and neither was Livyatan infallible in its judgement. It is apparent from private collections that Megalodon took its chances with large odontocetes including sperm whales, and respective outcomes of these trophic interactions as well. Win probability for both animals - assuming experienced adults:- Megalodon = 70% Livyatan = 30% Megalodon is not merely a giant white shark and did not share great white's mechanical limitations in relation to big-game hunting (Bretton Kent, 1999). Unfortunately, many continue to perceive Megalodon as a giant white shark and pay little attention to anatomical differences and resultant implications while assessing Megalodon; differences which significantly influenced behavior, raw power and predation possibilities for both species through the ages - virtually everything. --- I would like to learn all about Livyatan; its behavior, prey-related preferences, biology and vice versa. If you find anything meaningful, do not hesitate to share. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 10, 2019 19:05:46 GMT 5
LifeMaybe a blue whale could beat Megalodon? Seems like it could be big enough.
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Post by Grey on Oct 10, 2019 19:16:06 GMT 5
Fair points, but I'll disagree that at parity it is 50:50, for the reasons I stated. Your notion about the whale's fin is incorrect and irrelevant. Incorrect because Sperm whales typically keep their fins folded, so do the dolphins while going at full speed, in order to minimize the drag. And irrelevant because even if the fin gets bitten off, it's far from a life threatening loss for the whale. It can keep swimming normally without it. Whereas the shark is doomed in the same case. Assuming the whale would ram head first on the biting end of the shark does not appear realistic unless this species was especially agressive, which can't be demonstrated from the fossil material. Even the much larger and powerful Briggs orcas have evolved a specific technique to handle much smaller white sharks in order to avoid potential damages. So the idea of a berserker Livyatan ramming head first on its foe is seducing in not supported and equally risky. It can't be assumed either that the shark won't react or even didn't evolve specific behavioral techniques to counter the whale. You are basically a type of encounter with a conclusion that implies unverifiable behavior. That is why I rely on the purely physical characters of the animals and assuming parity size, they may be the modern counterpart of GWS compared with FKW, based on the similar size range, possible niche partitioning and the dolphin being huge-toothed. At least for now. Life, the problem is also that people are biased by the orcas example, it is really boring to see people omitting the massive size of the dolphin and the fact even killing a smaller shark is likely to a culture of long practice. |
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Post by theropod on Oct 10, 2019 19:32:33 GMT 5
Grey: Numerous isolated large teeth that could represent larger specimens. There are also at least as many isolated smaller teeth that could represent smaller specimens. Whereas as I think I have demonstrated, in the modest sample of isolated cf. Livyatan teeth that have been described so far, all appear to be quite consistent in size with the holotype. Which together with the fact that the holotype shows open pulp cavities, generally associated with immature, or at least young individuals, and the general improbability of finding such individuals in a population structure similar to extant Physeter, quite strongly indicates that the holotype was not an unusually large individual. Again, definitely not. Their relative jaw sizes (a purely physical characteristic if ever there was one) do not reflect that at all, they are more similar to an adult FKW compared to a juvenile white shark. Whereas adult white sharks tend to grow larger than false killer whales. You have made it clear that you consider relative jaw sizes important. Relative jaw sizes are more similar to those of an orca and a white shark. However I have never, and will never, propose that as a good analogy for this fight. Just like white shark and Pseudorca are not a good analogy. Life: Points you raise with regard to C. megalodon’s capabilities are applicable to Livyatan as well. First of all, Livyatan is obviously not comparable to any of the whales we know megalodon hunted, including sperm whales, but I don’t think anyone here really needs to be reminded of that. More on point, even compared to modern cetaceans that are impressive macropredators in their own right, such as Orcinus and Pseudorca, Livyatan (and other stem-physeteroids) have a vastly more impressive killing apparatus for the same body size ( refer back to the post I made on the last page). A skull and bite around a third longer than that of an orca or Pseudorca at similar body size. I have proposed that, in agreement with what you say, megalodon may not have been an exact copy of a white shark in terms of proportions either, based on the allometric scaling of jaw size, but others that is no certainty. If we assume direct proportionality between jaw size and total length, the resulting shark is larger, but its jaws also won’t be proportionately larger than a white shark’s jaws. Whether and to what extend megalodon was more formidable than a white shark at similar size depends heavily on such assumptions, and will have an impact on size estimates. So if we note that megalodon may not have been subject to the same mechanical limitations as a great white shark, that is fair, but we should also note that Livyatan may not have been subject to the same mechanical limitations as an orca. In both cases, of course, that is not a free pass to rely on beliefs and speculation instead of scientific evidence. You do this well for the whale, of course Livyatan would have biological limitations and exploitable weaknesses–same applies to megalodon. As for Kent 1999, which you cite as a source for this, could you provide the title or full details of that paper please?
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Post by sam1 on Oct 10, 2019 20:15:10 GMT 5
Fair points, but I'll disagree that at parity it is 50:50, for the reasons I stated. Your notion about the whale's fin is incorrect and irrelevant. Incorrect because Sperm whales typically keep their fins folded, so do the dolphins while going at full speed, in order to minimize the drag. And irrelevant because even if the fin gets bitten off, it's far from a life threatening loss for the whale. It can keep swimming normally without it. Whereas the shark is doomed in the same case. Assuming the whale would ram head first on the biting end of the shark does not appear realistic unless this species was especially agressive, which can't be demonstrated from the fossil material. Even the much larger and powerful Briggs orcas have evolved a specific technique to handle much smaller white sharks in order to avoid potential damages. So the idea of a berserker Livyatan ramming head first on its foe is seducing in not supported and equally risky. It can't be assumed either that the shark won't react or even didn't evolve specific behavioral techniques to counter the whale. You are basically a type of encounter with a conclusion that implies unverifiable behavior. That is why I rely on the purely physical characters of the animals and assuming parity size, they may be the modern counterpart of GWS compared with FKW, based on the similar size range, possible niche partitioning and the dolphin being huge-toothed. At least for now. I don't see what's unrealistic about it. Easily the most logical and expected course of action for a Livyatan that encounters a megalodon would be to try face the shark at all times. And if the shark attacks, easily the most logical and expected course of action would be to counter it by charging. I'm not saying it is a likely outcome overall since the shark would, also logically, try to attack from the side or from below. So the most likely situation, as I agreed with you, would actually have meg circling around trying to find a good angle and Livyatan maneuvering in place to prevent it, i.e. face the shark at all times. So yeah, mostly a stalemate but "if situation called for it", it could've easily ended up in a head on clash. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 10, 2019 20:34:17 GMT 5
That could yes but we're in likelyhood here.
I have said numerous times that I have no problem while comparing the holotype of Livyatan to any TL figure and/or meg specimen.
That is true, but as long as there is no material at least suggesting a definitely larger individual than the holotype, the edge about size goes for now to the shark.
I recall that you compared the skull size of those dolphins, not the actual dental part. The jaws mechanisms are so different that using skull length against jaw perimeter the comparison is hardly relevant.
That Livyatan is bigger-jawed in proportions has always been obvious as it is a sperm whale not a dolphin.
The comparison FKW and GWS is limited but the points I mention such as size similarity are still valid. You only showed the limitations of the comparison.
But there is no need to argue over again in that a 5-6 m raptorial shark and dolphin are a slightly better analogy for the Neogene giants than comparing the tyrannosaur-sized orca with the small allosaur-sized GWS.
Sam1, fair enough.
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Post by Life on Oct 10, 2019 21:35:28 GMT 5
Grey : Numerous isolated large teeth that could represent larger specimens. There are also at least as many isolated smaller teeth that could represent smaller specimens. Whereas as I think I have demonstrated, in the modest sample of isolated cf. Livyatan teeth that have been described so far, all appear to be quite consistent in size with the holotype. Which together with the fact that the holotype shows open pulp cavities, generally associated with immature, or at least young individuals, and the general improbability of finding such individuals in a population structure similar to extant Physeter, quite strongly indicates that the holotype was not an unusually large individual. Again, definitely not. Their relative jaw sizes (a purely physical characteristic if ever there was one) do not reflect that at all, they are more similar to an adult FKW compared to a juvenile white shark. Whereas adult white sharks tend to grow larger than false killer whales. You have made it clear that you consider relative jaw sizes important. Relative jaw sizes are more similar to those of an orca and a white shark. However I have never, and will never, propose that as a good analogy for this fight. Just like white shark and Pseudorca are not a good analogy. Life : Points you raise with regard to C. megalodon’s capabilities are applicable to Livyatan as well. First of all, Livyatan is obviously not comparable to any of the whales we know megalodon hunted, including sperm whales, but I don’t think anyone here really needs to be reminded of that. More on point, even compared to modern cetaceans that are impressive macropredators in their own right, such as Orcinus and Pseudorca, Livyatan (and other stem-physeteroids) have a vastly more impressive killing apparatus for the same body size ( refer back to the post I made on the last page). A skull and bite around a third longer than that of an orca or Pseudorca at similar body size. I have proposed that, in agreement with what you say, megalodon may not have been an exact copy of a white shark in terms of proportions either, based on the allometric scaling of jaw size, but others that is no certainty. If we assume direct proportionality between jaw size and total length, the resulting shark is larger, but its jaws also won’t be proportionately larger than a white shark’s jaws. Whether and to what extend megalodon was more formidable than a white shark at similar size depends heavily on such assumptions, and will have an impact on size estimates. So if we note that megalodon may not have been subject to the same mechanical limitations as a great white shark, that is fair, but we should also note that Livyatan may not have been subject to the same mechanical limitations as an orca. In both cases, of course, that is not a free pass to rely on beliefs and speculation instead of scientific evidence. You do this well for the whale, of course Livyatan would have biological limitations and exploitable weaknesses–same applies to megalodon. As for Kent 1999, which you cite as a source for this, could you provide the title or full details of that paper please? 1. Take a look:  And compare:  A, B, and C = Livyatan holotype D = modern era Physeter macrocephalusE = modern era Orcinus orcaSo what kind of sperm whales Megalodon was hunting? 2. Livyatan's killing apparatus is very impressive without any doubt; I am not drawing parallels with Orcinus and Pseudorca. In fact, I have strongly emphasized in my arguments that 'prolonged confrontations' with the Livyatan types did not favor Megalodon due to safety-related considerations for the latter, that a Megolodon would want to end this fight swiftly by aiming for the chest cavity of the odontocete (a noteworthy attacking strategy of Megalodon inferred from relevant fossil records). 3. Appreciated. 4. Sure. I am not suggesting that Megalodon was infallible, it surely wasn't. If this was the case then my POV would have been grounded in the works of fiction which is not correct. To assume that Megalodon was one of the greatest macropredators to have ever existed, and could handle Livyatan types, is not an unrealistic stance to take. In fact, following statement in Wroe et al (2008): "The threatened white shark Carcharodon carcharias, is the world’s largest extant predatory fish. Its gigantic, whale-eating relative, Carcharodon megalodon, was arguably the most formidable carnivore ever to have existed (Gottfried,Compagno & Bowman, 1996; Purdy, 1996)."- is not far-fetched. Thanks to valuable insight from professionals who noticed, documented and elaborated anatomical differences in the remains of Megalodon and Great white shark, and also those who provided rich examples of trophic interactions involving Megalodon - it is not difficult to piece together these important bits of information to understand what Megalodon was capable of in mechanical terms as well as its behavior, and extrapolate unobserved possibilities from these realities with conventional wisdom in the mix. 5. Title of this article is Hell's teeth. It is posted in the forum's official Megalodon Profile (I provided the link in one of earlier responses). This article provide valuable insight about the mechanical prowess of Megalodon as well as a case study of Megalodon's attacking strategy frozen in time. |
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Post by sam1 on Oct 10, 2019 22:04:26 GMT 5
It's amazing how this thread keeps going around in circles.. Every meg supporter still, after all this arguing seems fixated on the biting contest premise. They keep ignoring the extreme likelihood that - primary intention of Liyatan would be to ram a shark - if it came to biting, the primary target would likely be the PECTORAL FIN of the shark. Here's a simple question to meg supporters - what happens if meg's pectoral fin is bitten off? Hmm. I have commented on this thread after a long time, and I wonder how this debate have lasted over 90 pages but I am not complaining. I believe that Megalodon featured thick and strong fins to facilitate its movements given its sheer size, to cope with risks involved in its mating practices, and also to cope with risks involved in big-game hunting. Behavioral considerations are also important; Megalodon learning from its experiences over time, and refining its hunting strategies accordingly. Nevertheless, Livyatan is a gigantic macropredator as well, and could ruin even a hardened fin with a well-positioned bite or two. Should this happen then Megalodon will have no choice but to retreat ( Livyatan succeeded in fending off the gigantic shark). Livyatan could also dissuade a Megalodon with ramming behavior but for short-term. As I have emphasized recently, it is in the best interest of Megalodon to avoid a prolonged confrontation with Livyatan and remain healthy for long-term (survival instincts). Therefore, Megalodon is very likely to end this fight swiftly by aiming for the chest cavity of the cetacean (assumption grounded in attacking patterns of Megalodon inferred from relevant fossil records). In order to pull this off, Megalodon might have to avoid being painted by the echolocation of Livyatan and surprise it from below or another angle of approach, but I am not sure if this level of precaution was 'absolutely necessary' since Megalodon featured an excellent mix of sheer size, raw power, senses, and killing apparatus, to challenge whales in ways a great white shark can never hope to. Aiming for the chest cavity, is an excellent attacking strategy, and very telling in the context of the intelligence aspect of Megalodon (a meaningful pointer). --- No fan of sharks, is asserting that this contest represents a mismatch in the favor of Megalodon, or Livyatan could not defeat Megalodon under any circumstances. Livyatan is easily among the most powerful macropredators to have ever existed, and the only known lifeform which could challenge even adult Megalodon in theory at least. I laugh at other suggestions though. I am just a voice of caution here. That we are talking about a macropredatory shark which literally evolved for big-game hunting and could slaughter whales in ways unlike any other shark, that our knowledge is limited. Livyatan - no matter how fearsome - is still a whale with same biological limitations that an experienced Megalodon could exploit to its advantage, and neither was Livyatan infallible in its judgement. It is apparent from private collections that Megalodon took its chances with large odontocetes including sperm whales, and respective outcomes of these trophic interactions as well. Win probability for both animals - assuming experienced adults:- Megalodon = 70% Livyatan = 30% Megalodon is not merely a giant white shark and did not share great white's mechanical limitations in relation to big-game hunting (Bretton Kent, 1999). Unfortunately, many continue to perceive Megalodon as a giant white shark and pay little attention to anatomical differences and resultant implications while assessing Megalodon; differences which significantly influenced behavior, raw power and predation possibilities for both species through the ages - virtually everything. --- I would like to learn all about Livyatan; its behavior, prey-related preferences, biology and vice versa. If you find anything meaningful, do not hesitate to share. Nice post, and here are my two points: If Livyatan grabs Megalodon by the fin(a most likely outcome in the probably rare case of a head on clash (see my other post)) it's not just a "fend off" but actually a win by fatality. Finless meg is a dead meg, simple. It flips, goes into tonic immobility and dies. What you're describing in the rest of your post are basically consequences of an ambush hunting behavior of megalodon for which I don't see much relevance in an equal term, no ambush confrontation. And that's what we're discussing here. You're telling me at length that meg can easily kill a whale with a bite on the ribcage or some vital exposed parts of the body..I'm telling you, OF COURSE it can. It's not a revelation! Anyway, I agree with Grey that this is basically a 50:50 due to stalemate but in a head on clash I give clear edge to the whale, hence my vote. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 10, 2019 22:32:05 GMT 5
Sam1, tonic immobility by orcas work on smaller white sharks. I don't expect Livyatan able to induce in this state a shark as large as it is. This is not an immediate effect neither and assuming the shark would be totally unable to land a bite on its foe is not reasonable since even smaller sharks have been able to bite their much larger orca predators.
So again, it is time to stop this thought that what we see between orcas and GWS (tonic immobility) will happen in radically different critters from other lineages 10 million years old.
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Post by theropod on Oct 10, 2019 22:39:23 GMT 5
Life 1) The site that sold this tooth claims it is Physeter sp. paleodirect.com/wh023-largest-complete-fossil-sperm-whale-tooth-with-megalodon-shark-bites/It’s not that I particulatly trust them (they also have a rather colorful interpretation on how this happened, "fight with the shark and whale locking jaws"), but the tooth does look similar to Physeter teeth, they provide a figure plate of a Physeter skull and teeth showing this: paleodirect.com/product_images/uploaded_images/odont1.jpgIt could also be a Livyatan tooth, anatomically that would be plausible as well. In that case, the first from the northern hemisphere. Anyway, what they interpret quite confidently as a megalodon bite mark also seems a bit overinterpreted. Even is it is though, how is that evidence megalodon preyed on this whale? A bite to the jaw would appear a very strange predation technique indeed. 2) Of course. I would presume either one would want to end the fight quickly, but of course the question is if they could, i.e. if their opponent would let them do this. For that reason, of course it would seem exceedingly unlikely they would really fight on equal ground in a natural setting, even one preying on the other with the benefit of ambush would seem rather unlikely due to the risk involved. 4) I am not doubting this. Surely, megalodon was one of the greatest macropredators to have ever lived. As was Livyatan. 5) thanks. Yes, I know the article. As I recall, that is a piece of popular science authored by a journalist, not by Bretton Kent. Grey Yes of course I did, I also didn’t compare the actual dental part of the shark, but the entire jaw perimeter, according to an estimate where only about 62 % of it is actually teeth. Skull and jaw morphology of stem-physeteroids is quite similar to Orcinus. I recall this has been repeatedly emphasized in the literature. Skull length should be a good proxy for jaw size, but if you have measurements suggesting otherwise, of course I would be very interested to see them and revise my figures. Do you have evidence megalodon, unlike its closest modern relatives, would not be subject to tonic immobility when flipped?
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Post by sam1 on Oct 10, 2019 23:00:29 GMT 5
Sam1, tonic immobility by orcas work on smaller white sharks. I don't expect Livyatan able to induce in this state a shark as large as it is. This is not an immediate effect neither and assuming the shark would be totally unable to land a bite on its foe is not reasonable since even smaller sharks have been able to bite their much larger orca predators. So again, it is time to stop this thought that what we see between orcas and GWS (tonic immobility) will happen in radically different critters from other lineages 10 million years old. Maybe I described it in such a way that it looks like I expect an immediate effect..anyway my point was that if shark loses its pectoral fin it inevitably will die, not immediately but relatively soon. Any pelagic requiem/lamniform shark if I'm not mistaken. |
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