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Post by Life on Oct 11, 2019 0:51:01 GMT 5
Hmm. I have commented on this thread after a long time, and I wonder how this debate have lasted over 90 pages but I am not complaining. I believe that Megalodon featured thick and strong fins to facilitate its movements given its sheer size, to cope with risks involved in its mating practices, and also to cope with risks involved in big-game hunting. Behavioral considerations are also important; Megalodon learning from its experiences over time, and refining its hunting strategies accordingly. Nevertheless, Livyatan is a gigantic macropredator as well, and could ruin even a hardened fin with a well-positioned bite or two. Should this happen then Megalodon will have no choice but to retreat ( Livyatan succeeded in fending off the gigantic shark). Livyatan could also dissuade a Megalodon with ramming behavior but for short-term. As I have emphasized recently, it is in the best interest of Megalodon to avoid a prolonged confrontation with Livyatan and remain healthy for long-term (survival instincts). Therefore, Megalodon is very likely to end this fight swiftly by aiming for the chest cavity of the cetacean (assumption grounded in attacking patterns of Megalodon inferred from relevant fossil records). In order to pull this off, Megalodon might have to avoid being painted by the echolocation of Livyatan and surprise it from below or another angle of approach, but I am not sure if this level of precaution was 'absolutely necessary' since Megalodon featured an excellent mix of sheer size, raw power, senses, and killing apparatus, to challenge whales in ways a great white shark can never hope to. Aiming for the chest cavity, is an excellent attacking strategy, and very telling in the context of the intelligence aspect of Megalodon (a meaningful pointer). --- No fan of sharks, is asserting that this contest represents a mismatch in the favor of Megalodon, or Livyatan could not defeat Megalodon under any circumstances. Livyatan is easily among the most powerful macropredators to have ever existed, and the only known lifeform which could challenge even adult Megalodon in theory at least. I laugh at other suggestions though. I am just a voice of caution here. That we are talking about a macropredatory shark which literally evolved for big-game hunting and could slaughter whales in ways unlike any other shark, that our knowledge is limited. Livyatan - no matter how fearsome - is still a whale with same biological limitations that an experienced Megalodon could exploit to its advantage, and neither was Livyatan infallible in its judgement. It is apparent from private collections that Megalodon took its chances with large odontocetes including sperm whales, and respective outcomes of these trophic interactions as well. Win probability for both animals - assuming experienced adults:- Megalodon = 70% Livyatan = 30% Megalodon is not merely a giant white shark and did not share great white's mechanical limitations in relation to big-game hunting (Bretton Kent, 1999). Unfortunately, many continue to perceive Megalodon as a giant white shark and pay little attention to anatomical differences and resultant implications while assessing Megalodon; differences which significantly influenced behavior, raw power and predation possibilities for both species through the ages - virtually everything. --- I would like to learn all about Livyatan; its behavior, prey-related preferences, biology and vice versa. If you find anything meaningful, do not hesitate to share. Nice post, and here are my two points: If Livyatan grabs Megalodon by the fin(a most likely outcome in the probably rare case of a head on clash (see my other post)) it's not just a "fend off" but actually a win by fatality. Finless meg is a dead meg, simple. It flips, goes into tonic immobility and dies. What you're describing in the rest of your post are basically consequences of an ambush hunting behavior of megalodon for which I don't see much relevance in an equal term, no ambush confrontation. And that's what we're discussing here. You're telling me at length that meg can easily kill a whale with a bite on the ribcage or some vital exposed parts of the body..I'm telling you, OF COURSE it can. It's not a revelation! Anyway, I agree with Grey that this is basically a 50:50 due to stalemate but in a head on clash I give clear edge to the whale, hence my vote. You probably overlooked this view: "I believe that Megalodon featured thick and strong fins to facilitate its movements given its sheer size, to cope with risks involved in its mating practices, and also to cope with risks involved in big-game hunting." The aforementioned view is actually grounded in a sound rationale about Megalodon's locomotive requirements in Gottfried et al (1996). Implications wise, it won't be easy for any animal to deprive Megalodon from one of its pectoral fins in its entirety with a well-positioned bite or two, particularly in a confrontational dynamic where the billigerents are perfectly aware of each other's presence and attempting to kill each other (boxing contest). You also need to factor in movements as well as potential maneuvers of Megalodon in this matter. Do you have real life examples of any animal successfully depriving a large shark of one of its pectoral fins in its entirety in a trophic interaction, to share with us? What kind of animal and what kind of shark? Your point gives the vibe of an extrapolation on the basis of colorful imagination rather then being grounded in real life observations and/or professional judgement. For your point # 2:-Of-course, I pointed out how this confrontation might actually unfold in real life based on inferred Megalodon's predation methods from relevant fossil records as well as safety-related considerations among other factors. I am into realism in any debate. Assuming a boxing contest, it is really difficult to predict how this fight will unfold. Conjecture # 1: Perhaps Livyatan will succeed in ramming the Megalodon, driving the shark away for short-term consequently. But the whale has to surface up to breathe at some point and the (presumably observant) whale-eating shark is likely to capitalize on this development to its advantage.... Conjecture # 2: Perhaps Megalodon will make the first move and aim for the chest cavity of Livyatan in the process. The whale might try to evade incoming attack and/or possibly countermaneuver to deliver a ram of its own. Whether the whale will be successful or not, is debatable. If the whale fail, it is doomed. If not, then it might drive Megalodon away for a while, but repeat of Conjecture # 1 is still possible.... I am sticking with 70% : 30% ratio of the probability of success for Megalodon and Livyatan respectively, for now. |
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Post by sam1 on Oct 11, 2019 2:16:20 GMT 5
Nice post, and here are my two points: If Livyatan grabs Megalodon by the fin(a most likely outcome in the probably rare case of a head on clash (see my other post)) it's not just a "fend off" but actually a win by fatality. Finless meg is a dead meg, simple. It flips, goes into tonic immobility and dies. What you're describing in the rest of your post are basically consequences of an ambush hunting behavior of megalodon for which I don't see much relevance in an equal term, no ambush confrontation. And that's what we're discussing here. You're telling me at length that meg can easily kill a whale with a bite on the ribcage or some vital exposed parts of the body..I'm telling you, OF COURSE it can. It's not a revelation! Anyway, I agree with Grey that this is basically a 50:50 due to stalemate but in a head on clash I give clear edge to the whale, hence my vote. You probably overlooked this view: "I believe that Megalodon featured thick and strong fins to facilitate its movements given its sheer size, to cope with risks involved in its mating practices, and also to cope with risks involved in big-game hunting." The aforementioned view is actually grounded in a sound rationale about Megalodon's locomotive requirements in Gottfried et al (1996). Implications wise, it won't be easy for any animal to deprive Megalodon from one of its pectoral fins in its entirety with a well-positioned bite or two, particularly in a confrontational dynamic where the billigerents are perfectly aware of each other's presence and attempting to kill each other (boxing contest). You also need to factor in movements as well as potential maneuvers of Megalodon in this matter. Do you have real life examples of any animal successfully depriving a large shark of one of its pectoral fins in its entirety in a trophic interaction, to share with us? What kind of animal and what kind of shark? Your point gives the vibe of an extrapolation on the basis of colorful imagination rather then being grounded in real life observations and/or professional judgement. For your point # 2:-Of-course, I pointed out how this confrontation might actually unfold in real life based on inferred Megalodon's predation methods from relevant fossil records as well as safety-related considerations among other factors. I am into realism in any debate. Assuming a boxing contest, it is really difficult to predict how this fight will unfold. Conjecture # 1: Perhaps Livyatan will succeed in ramming the Megalodon, driving the shark away for short-term consequently. But the whale has to surface up to breathe at some point and the (presumably observant) whale-eating shark is likely to capitalize on this development to its advantage.... Conjecture # 2: Perhaps Megalodon will make the first move and aim for the chest cavity of Livyatan in the process. The whale might try to evade incoming attack and/or possibly countermaneuver to deliver a ram of its own. Whether the whale will be successful or not, is debatable. If the whale fail, it is doomed. If not, then it might drive Megalodon away for a while, but repeat of Conjecture # 1 is still possible.... I am sticking with 70% : 30% ratio of the probability of success for Megalodon and Livyatan respectively, for now. Very nice. The points are valid, but of course I didn't overlook the #1. I just believe Livyatan had the capability to do it on a good enough probability. Whether was that actually the case, I guess only some simulated tests and calculations can determine. Untill that I'll remain confident the bite potential of Livyatan was more than enough to tear off the tough fin of a megalodon, especially at parity. The lack of contemporary analogies isn't an evidence to the contrary.. the only animals that could perhaps be capable of pulling it of to a GWS at parity would be Orca and pseudorca. Orcas are obviously not bothering doing it, and pseudorca, well, apart from having relatively much smaller jaws than Livyatan, apparently isn't spending much time out there fighting the great whites. Just because they don't do it doesn't mean they couldn't do it. The same argument could be turned the other way you know..is the lack of predation of GWS on pseudorca an evidence that they cannot effectively bite and kill it? ( no need to answer, I'm sure a great white could bite through a pseudorca at parity) Also, the notion that whale would be "doomed" if failing to cripple the shark initially is, honestly, very biased. Why would it be doomed? As if it couldn't maintain to try gaining a favorable position (especially considering the superior maneuverability and roll and pitch capabilities) Shark exposing its sides and undersides to a whale would be just as dangerous as it would be for a whale to expose itself the same way, and the whale( in case you forgot, also a hipercarnivorous aggressive big game killer with a devastating bite) would definitely continue to aim for those parts. Another factor you are perhaps omitting, is that Livyatan's jaws are more suitable for this kind of close quarter struggle. They are a massive grip and tear tool, perfect for controlling the opponent and maintaining favorable position all while delivering major damage. |
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Post by theropod on Oct 11, 2019 4:26:39 GMT 5
In addition, the assumption that a ram by a 30-60 ton whale would be just a sort of minor nuisance that might temporarily deter the shark is frankly wrong.
Even orcas (and reportedly even bottlenose dolphins) use rams to lethal effect, even against larger whales (and sharks), and despite being themselves an order of magnitude smaller than Livyatan. In these taxa, damage seems to be primarily localized, which explains why they don’t require a large dampening spermaceti organ, but a pointed, stiff rostrum. Physeteroids however are a different story.
The ramming adaptations and capabilities of extant Physeter have been studied. At the scales we are talking about, a single ram at reasonably high speed may well end the fight (and not just temporarily) or at least cause major injury, simply by inducing a fatal level of accelleration on even a large-bodied opponent.
Carrier et al. 2002 simulated that under all their assumptions for dampening constants, a Physeter hit by another Physeter at 3m/s (about 11 km/h) would experience g-forces at which fatal injuries would occur, despite only mild accellerations to the attacking whale. Now as I am sure someone will bring up, Livyatan does have a smaller spermaceti organ than Physeter, but it is still seriously sized, I remember the head alone coming out at over 9 t in my model, and that was under very conservative assumptions regarding the size of the cranial soft tissues. The giant size of the spermaceti organ (and junk) in sperm whales is also subject to other pressures than just the one towards ramming, and hence might be overbuilt for this purpose alone.
And we are not requiring the Livyatan to necessarily kill the shark in one single ram or be able to sink a whaling ship of over 200 tons, it is enough to cause serious injuries (not something the shark would just take as a cue to retreat and come back later, something that would be life threatening, at the very least while faced with a large, formidable opponent). Which we can even expect to happen more easily to a shark than another whale, as we also need to consider the local effects the concentration of such forces on a relatively small area (the frontal area of the whale‘s junk) could have against some of the not so well protected parts of the shark (chondocranium, gills, internal organs…).
This is not a mildly unpleasant push that might cause the shark to back off and come back later. We are talking about a kinetic energy at least equivalent to being hit by a bus. Essentially, a battering ram. The physeteroid head has adaptations specifically to withstand and dissipate this energy (Panagiotopoulou et al. 2016). The shark simply does not. A head on collision with a 30-60 ton whale? From what we know, potentially fatal.
It seems periodic reminders of this are needed, as no matter how often the evidence is posted, after a while people revert back to thinking of ramming as some sort of mild annoyance.
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Post by sam1 on Oct 11, 2019 4:52:09 GMT 5
In addition, the assumption that a ram by a 30-60 ton whale would be just a sort of minor nuisance that might temporarily deter the shark is frankly wrong. Even orcas (and reportedly even bottlenose dolphins) use rams to lethal effect, even against larger whales (and sharks), and despite being themselves an order of magnitude smaller than Livyatan. In these taxa, damage seems to be primarily localized, which explains why they don’t require a large dampening spermaceti organ, but a pointed, stiff rostrum. Physeteroids however are a different story. The ramming adaptations and capabilities of extant Physeter have been studied. At the scales we are talking about, a single ram at reasonably high speed may well end the fight (and not just temporarily) or at least cause major injury, simply by inducing a fatal level of accelleration on even a large-bodied opponent. Carrier et al. 2002 simulated that under all their assumptions for dampening constants, a Physeter hit by another Physeter at 3m/s (about 11 km/h) would experience g-forces at which fatal injuries would occur, despite only mild accellerations to the attacking whale. Now as I am sure someone will bring up, Livyatan does have a smaller spermaceti organ than Physeter, but it is still seriously sized, I remember the head alone coming out at over 9 t in my model, and that was under very conservative assumptions regarding the size of the cranial soft tissues. The giant size of the spermaceti organ (and junk) in sperm whales is also subject to other pressures than just the one towards ramming, and hence might be overbuilt for this purpose alone. And we are not requiring the Livyatan to necessarily kill the shark in one single ram or be able to sink a whaling ship of over 200 tons, it is enough to cause serious injuries (not something the shark would just take as a cue to retreat and come back later, something that would be life threatening, at the very least while faced with a large, formidable opponent). Which we can even expect to happen more easily to a shark than another whale, as we also need to consider the local effects the concentration of such forces on a relatively small area (the frontal area of the whale‘s junk) could have against some of the not so well protected parts of the shark (chondocranium, gills, internal organs…). This is not a mildly unpleasant push that might cause the shark to back off and come back later. We are talking about a kinetic energy at least equivalent to being hit by a bus. Essentially, a battering ram. The physeteroid head has adaptations specifically to withstand and dissipate this energy (Panagiotopoulou et al. 2016). The shark simply does not. A head on collision with a 30-60 ton whale? From what we know, potentially fatal. It seems periodic reminders of this are needed, as no matter how often the evidence is posted, after a while people revert back to thinking of ramming as some sort of mild annoyance. Yeah I think coherentsheaf posted that very ramming study quite a while ago. And even I, after bringing the point up so many times, end up kind of ignoring it. So your closing assertion cannot be more true. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 11, 2019 15:58:41 GMT 5
It is possible as well that Livyatan evolved his melon more for diving purposes than for ramming as other fossil sperm whales have evolved a melon and were already specialized squid-eaters.
And yes the melon is less massive than in Physeter so an actual analysis of Livyatan's own capabilities should be needed as in comparison a large bull Physeter head will reach almost twice the mass than what Theropod suggests for Livyatan.
But I agree that at this scale a single ram could kill or seriously injure any opponent of similar size.
However, while megalodon was (maybe) not as adaptated as this, I should recall that these marine mammals-eating sharks basically ram their prey numerous times.
There is near-evidence, or suggestion, of a whale being rammed by a megalodon.
Added to the likelihood of megalodon hunted whales that were medium-sized at most but still multi-tons animals, this is a good hint that megalodon was potent at ramming even if less adapted to that.
Brett Kent has often suggested that with a single ram the meg maybe didn't always need to bite its prey.
Kent suggests a classic lamniform snout is more likely than the pug-nose of Gottfried et al. but I have read an interesting suggestion that meg maybe really had a more bulldog-like snout given its prey items were regularly animals weighing many tonnes.
This is pure speculation of course as no remain of a meg snout exists, but implying a ram by a megalodon would not be potent is just wrong, let alone when combined with a bite.
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Post by sam1 on Oct 11, 2019 18:07:35 GMT 5
Grey, that's like saying, hey but I can punch too.. doesn't mean you can go slugg it out with a heavyweight boxer.
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Post by theropod on Oct 11, 2019 18:14:18 GMT 5
The question was who would come out on top in a frontal ramming confrontation, was it not? That sort of scenario seems rather likely to result in serious or fatal injuries for the shark, not the whale. There’s nothing protecting its chondocranium from an impact of this magnitude.
With regard to "near-evidence, or suggestion, of a whale being rammed by a megalodon", are you talking about the cetothere vertebra with the compression fracture? If so, that seems to be a non-argument, as firstly there is no actual evidence it was even caused by a megalodon, and secondly, it is a vastly smaller prey item, and yet wasn’t actually killed. So if anything, that case is evidence against whatever animal rammed that cetothere (if it was even rammed at all) being unable to cause fatal injury to it.
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Post by elosha11 on Oct 11, 2019 23:10:08 GMT 5
I've been offline with work but will catch up on the last few pages and post my comments. But did thumb through the new stuff and I must say, I applaud everyone's diligence and rigor in defending their arguments, and - for the most part - maintaining tact and civility with each other. It's ok to have strong disagreements, but we learn the most when we stay polite and respectful, as well as being open to being both persuasive and persuadable by others who advance strong arguments.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 11, 2019 23:15:17 GMT 5
^Agreed. That's something a certain someone elsewhere really has to work on
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Post by Grey on Oct 11, 2019 23:15:26 GMT 5
Grey, that's like saying, hey but I can punch too.. doesn't mean you can go slugg it out with a heavyweight boxer. Cetaceans with melons are not the only ones known to have destroyed good-sized boats, mysticetes despite being as well adapted have been able to. Great white sharks and makos are powerful rammer animals, either ramming marine mammals, bluefins, or small boats. The sheer power of a 50 tonnes megalodon launched at possibly 37 kph will potent as well again a similar-sized opponent, even without melon. And the shark usually add the teeth in the process. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 11, 2019 23:20:25 GMT 5
The question was who would come out on top in a frontal ramming confrontation, was it not? That sort of scenario seems rather likely to result in serious or fatal injuries for the shark, not the whale. There’s nothing protecting its chondocranium from an impact of this magnitude. With regard to "near-evidence, or suggestion, of a whale being rammed by a megalodon", are you are talking about the cetothere vertebra with the compression fracture? If so, that seems to be a non-argument, as firstly there is no actual evidence it was even caused by a megalodon, and secondly, it is a vastly smaller prey item, and yet wasn’t actually killed. So if anything, that case is evidence against whatever animal rammed that cetothere (if it was even rammed at all) being unable to cause fatal injury to it. At first, the possibility is considered the most likely by the authors. Then, megalodons of the Chesapeake Bay are modest-sized, so an eventual survival for a prey item that size is realistic. At last, are bull sperm whales then killing each other each time they mate ? No. Even extremely powerful, a ram against a mobile, evading prey won't be succesfull everytime depending the angle, the reaction of the prey. So yes this is a potential argument. On the contrary, this shows that even a smaller prey item can possibly survive against a much bigger foe, so this suggests, depending many factors, a survival between two opponents the same size can be possible. At last, there is no indication the whale would be faster than the shark, which would impact on the sheer ramming potency. |
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Post by sam1 on Oct 12, 2019 0:13:34 GMT 5
Grey you are really needlesly stretching it now.
When it comes to ramming, livyatan >> megalodon, it's not discussion actually.
That sperm whales don't kill each other when fighting is a testament to their extreme shock-absorbing adaptations.
Do rams kill each other when butting heads?
Would butting a head with a ram be potentially fatal for any other similarly sized non-ungulate?
Let it go, man.
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Post by theropod on Oct 12, 2019 0:48:11 GMT 5
At first, the possibility is considered the most likely by the authors. Which authors? Where did they publish it? What evidence did they cite identifying C. megalodon as the culprit? |
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Post by Grey on Oct 12, 2019 1:57:41 GMT 5
Grey you are really needlesly stretching it now. When it comes to ramming, livyatan >> megalodon, it's not discussion actually. That sperm whales don't kill each other when fighting is a testament to their extreme shock-absorbing adaptations. Do rams kill each other when butting heads? Would butting a head with a ram be potentially fatal for any other similarly sized non-ungulate? Let it go, man. Livyatan's ramming would be proportionnel more lethal but not that much, the ramming potency of the shark combined to its teeth is there as well. |
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Post by Grey on Oct 12, 2019 1:58:50 GMT 5
At first, the possibility is considered the most likely by the authors. Which authors? Where did they publish it? What evidence did they cite identifying C. megalodon as the culprit? Check the paper by Godfrey, they simply consider meg to be the most likely reasons compared to the others. |
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