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Post by elosha11 on Nov 27, 2019 0:21:46 GMT 5
dinosauria101. Lulong, who was about 6.13 meters "only" weighed a little over one ton. Other similar length crocs approaching six meters are also about a ton. One more meter will make a 7 meter croc (almost a mythical creature), heavier, but not twice the size. A 7 meter croc could be expected, at most, to weigh around 3000 pounds. The exaggerated sizes for crocs historically has made even GWS "big fish tales" look tame in comparison.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 27, 2019 0:32:14 GMT 5
@elosha, I don't mean Lolong. I mean the big saltie from Orissa. Also, at 4,8 meters, we have salties ranging from 522 kg to 1 ton, and crocs tend to increase in bulk as they get larger. This gives us 2 tonnes for a Lolong-size croc scaled up from that estimate, and that's just 6 meters-7 would be even bigger.
However, I agree something like Lolong isn't really a match for Deep Blue.
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Post by elosha11 on Nov 27, 2019 0:39:12 GMT 5
Sources for above? I'm seen a number of salties around 1 ton and around 6 meters. Never heard of a 4.8 meter croc weighing anywhere near a ton, and I'm highly skeptical of it. Sorry, I know of no evidence that a 7 meter croc (an exceedingly rare animal) would be 2 tons, quite the opposite.
What's the SW croc from Orissa, and was it accurately weighed or was it just the usual breathless eyewitness accounts from local fishermen?
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 27, 2019 5:00:51 GMT 5
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Post by elosha11 on Nov 28, 2019 6:41:39 GMT 5
The Australian paper you cite says "Males of Crocodylus porosus more than 7 m in length and weighing perhaps 2000 kg, are the largest of the extant reptiles." It's obviously a well researched study on crocodilian anatomy, but there's no supporting citation or example. The springer.com article just looks like an abstract and I don't see what specifically supports 2 ton crocs in it.
As to the Orissa croc, are you referring to this which came up in google for Orissa croc. Again, there's absolutely no way to verify how long, much less how heavy, this crocodilian is.
To my knowledge, the really large crocs approaching or exceeding 6 meters weigh around a ton. I could see a 7 meter croc adding another 1000 pounds, but not doubling in size.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 28, 2019 19:36:01 GMT 5
Ah, yes. That is the correct croc.
Regarding scaling from 6 to 7 meters, you would only need to scale a 6 meter croc to 7.5 meters to get 2 tonnes. Crocodilians get substantially bulkier as they get larger, (example: a 3 meter croc scaled to 6 meters would weigh 800 kg, but 6 meter crocs weigh ~1 tonne. This means a 25 percent in bulk increase happens, and the proportionate bulk would increase more and more as the animal gets bigger. A 7 meter croc scaled from a 6 meter, 1 tonne one is ~1.56 tonnes, and assuming a 25 percent bulk increase this gives us 1.95 tonnes; essentially 2.
So no, 2 tonnes is not off the table for a 7 meter croc.
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Post by elosha11 on Nov 29, 2019 22:26:11 GMT 5
Sorry, but there's no documented evidence for any of this. Lulong was measured at 6.17 m (20 ft 3 in), and weighed 1,075 kg (2,370 lb). From wikipedia, and multiple original sources. So I'll be VERY generous and give a one meter increase to 7.17 a 50% increase on the weight. This equals 3555 pounds, which again is substantially less than 2 tons, although still huge. Rounding down for to exactly 7 meters would bring the expected weight down to around 3400 pounds. So very huge, but substantially smaller than 17 to 20 foot great whites, which often range from 4000 to 5550 pounds. Again, I highly doubt a one meter difference between a 6 meter to 7 meter croc is going to yield near a 50% weight gain, more likely something like 25% to 30%. Keep in mind at either size, these are already absolutely monstrous crocs, at or very close to maximum size capacity. If I gave Lulong a 30% increase in weight with one add'l meter in length, it would yield 3081 pounds, which is close to what I originally estimated, and is in fact, much more likely than 3555 pounds. But if you want claim generally a 7 meter croc could range between 3000 to 3550 pounds, that would be fine, I'd just more likely expect the lower end of that range. Unlike GWS which have multiple times been recorded as weighing 5500 pounds or more, there has never been, to my knowledge, one actual record of a croc being accurately weighed a 2 tonnes, in fact, Lulong's weight at only a bit over one ton is one of the heaviest ever recorded. Lastly, I'm really struggling to even understand the rationale and basis of your math. You state:  One metric tonne is one tonne, approximately 2240 pounds. It seems you've doubled a tonne and then added on an add'l 25% to get your croc to close to two tonnes, and that simply has no basis. Assuming 7 to 7.5 SW crocs still exist, and I'm quite skeptical of this, they likely weigh around 3000 pounds, as I've stated. All sources to the contrary seem to be nothing but guesswork and unsupported by the known weights of giant approx 6 meter crocs. |
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Post by theropod on Nov 29, 2019 22:54:35 GMT 5
7.17 m vs 6.17 m corresponding to a 50% in weight increase isn’t generous, it is less than isometry (which would be (7.17/6.17)³=57%).
Scaling from Lolong, a real 7 m crocodile would.be 46-51% heavier, i.e. about 1.57 -1.63 t depending on the exact methodology of the length measurement. There is as little basis for making it heavier (what dinosauria seems to be suggesting) as there is for making it lighter (as elosha seems to be suggesting). Or at least, nothing has been posted, if you want to establish allometry you should have the data to demonstrate it exists. I think I actually posted a paper on length-mass relationships in saltwater crocodiles somewhere, you could look at that.
But there’s no actual evidence for any 7m+ crocodiles anyway, is there? Lolong is the biggest saltie reliably measured.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 29, 2019 22:59:41 GMT 5
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Post by theropod on Nov 29, 2019 23:06:40 GMT 5
No you are not simply using isometric scaling, you are using allometric scaling. If you want to establish such a relationship, post the data to support it. And no, finding one smaller crocodile that’s less bulky than one larger crocodile is not sufficient, there is something called INDIVIDUAL VARIATION, even if they are truly random picks.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 29, 2019 23:13:38 GMT 5
Oh. My bad.
What I was ACTUALLY doing was isometric scaling, THEN applying alllometry.
Regarding crocodilian bulk, it does indeed hold up in general from what I can tell. For example, as I said earlier, 3 meter crocodilians tend to weigh ~100 kg; scaling them to 6 meters gives 800 kg. But 6 meter crocs tend to weigh 1000 kg, leading to a 20 percent bulk increase as dimensions increase.
Another example is the American alligator, which weighs ~90 kg at ~2.9 meters. Scaling that up to the 5.8 meter record sized gator would get 760 kg, but the world record gator is 1 tonne.
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Post by creature386 on Nov 29, 2019 23:25:03 GMT 5
Oh. My bad. What I was ACTUALLY doing was isometric scaling, THEN applying alllometry. Regarding crocodilian bulk, it does indeed hold up in general from what I can tell. For example, as I said earlier, 3 meter crocodilians tend to weigh ~100 kg; scaling them to 6 meters gives 800 kg. But 6 meter crocs tend to weigh 1000 kg, leading to a 20 percent bulk increase as dimensions increase. Another example is the American alligator, which weighs ~90 kg at ~2.9 meters. Scaling that up to the 5.8 meter record sized gator would get 760 kg, but the world record gator is 1 tonne. That's a very, very rough data basis. The first example you give is a 100% increase in linear dimensions, not a 17% one as in the 7 m vs 6 m discussion. Also, the bulk increase seems to be weaker despite the much stronger length in crease in your example. Given how rough your data basis is, my best hunch is that you just guessed the bulk increase. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 29, 2019 23:38:46 GMT 5
That was just an example to show how much bulk increases among crocodilians. It's roughly 20 percent, enough to get a 7 meter croc about 2 tonnes
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Post by theropod on Nov 29, 2019 23:40:53 GMT 5
Where are the sources for your examples? And how do you know how representative they are?
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 29, 2019 23:47:46 GMT 5
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One metric tonne is one tonne, approximately 2240 pounds. It seems you've doubled a tonne and then added on an add'l 25% to get your croc to close to two tonnes, and that simply has no basis. 
