Weasel
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 2:13:10 GMT 5
Eagles claws may be more deadly than the cats but the cat has both claws AND bite.
Housecats weigh around 8 pounds and are domesticated meaning they likely don't have experience while servals IMO have a rather unimpressive build. Eagles never kill adult cats only subadults or by ambush.
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 2:21:59 GMT 5
Im not even sure if a eagle can kill an ADULT serval.
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 2:55:38 GMT 5
Eagles claws may be more deadly than the cats but the cat has both claws AND bite. Housecats weigh around 8 pounds and are domesticated meaning they likely don't have experience while servals IMO have a rather unimpressive build. Eagles never kill adult cats only subadults or by ambush. The eagle also has claws and bite, and a considerable positional advantage on top of that. There’s a reason eagles can kill wolves that are several times more massive (and certainly far stronger), which no cat that size could even dream of, you know? Housecats, at least where I live, are pretty much wild animals, and it is likely that house cats taken by eagles were too, because they obviously weren’t killed in some old person’s flat, but outside. They are about the same weight as a golden eagle. So if cats supposedly are superior fighters to eagles, how come they are killed by eagles at similar body masses? Have you ever had a proper look at a bobcat (or any lynx for that matter)? They can have a fairly thick coat of fur, but beneath that its built usually isn’t that impressive either. Anyway, servals prove once again that eagles have no problem killing decent-sized, wild felines, and I don’t really think relatively minor physical differences play that big a role as far as an eagle killing them is concerned: Servals are brevirostrine, have flexible limbs used in grappling, claws and canines, so do most other cats. Golden eagles have evidently killed cats in a struggle. A large part of the so often-repeated "eagle-ambush" is basically just their ability to attack from above. Their prey is often aware of them, but simply unable to escape. An eagle killing an adult serval would be very impressive, after all adult servals are typically double the size of any african eagle. The servals in question seem to be either small adults or subadults. |
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 3:13:52 GMT 5
www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/96pubs/96-77.pdfGolden eagles are apparently capable of killing sizeable calves via skull or nape grasp, by punturing the spinal chord or the brain cavity. Their talons really seem to be very effective at puncturing thick bony structures, while at the same time they can also stab and rip deeply into the body cavity.
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 4:18:36 GMT 5
Eagles claws may be more deadly than the cats but the cat has both claws AND bite. Housecats weigh around 8 pounds and are domesticated meaning they likely don't have experience while servals IMO have a rather unimpressive build. Eagles never kill adult cats only subadults or by ambush. The eagle also has claws and bite, and a considerable positional advantage on top of that. There’s a reason eagles can kill wolves that are several times more massive, and certainly far stronger, you know? Housecats, at least where I live, are pretty much wild animals, and it is likely that house cats taken by eagles were too, because they obviously weren’t killed in some old person’s flat, but outside. They are about the same weight as a golden eagle. So if cats supposedly are superior fighters to eagles, how come they are killed by eagles at similar body masses? Have you ever had a proper look at a bobcat (or any lynx for that matter)? They can have a fairly thick coat of fur, but beneath that its built usually isn’t that impressive either. Anyway, servals prove once again that eagles have no problem killing decent-sized, wild felines, and I don’t really think relatively minor physical differences play that big a role as far as an eagle killing them is concerned: Servals are brevirostrine, have flexible limbs used in grappling, claws and canines, so do most other cats. Golden eagles have evidently killed cats in a struggle. A large part of the so often-repeated "eagle-ambush" is basically just their ability to attack from above. Their prey is often aware of them, but simply unable to escape. An eagle killing an adult serval would be very impressive, after all adult servals are typically double the size of any african eagle. The servals in question seem to be either small adults or subadults. TRAINED eagles kill SUBADULT wolves trying to run away, wolves can't even use their forelimbs for grappling.That proves nothing. Golden eagles can't kill cats in struggles that's a silly assumption maybe they killed subadults or females. Eagles also have VERY thin skin one strike with a claw can be enough to seriously injure the eagle. All the eagle has for protection is thin skin and feather the bobcat has thick fur and muscle. Housecats have little to no experiences in the wild aside from a few pigeons. You must really live in a shitty area because normally housecats are considered domestic animals. Eagles don't kill adult servals and they are still not impressive try something else please |
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 4:25:28 GMT 5
www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/96pubs/96-77.pdfGolden eagles are apparently capable of killing sizeable calves via skull or nape grasp, by punturing the spinal chord or the brain cavity. Their talons really seem to be very effective at puncturing thick bony structures, while at the same time they can also stab and rip deeply into the body cavity. |
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 13:39:40 GMT 5
I think you then have to read it again.
"…the eagles typically attacked most calves by hitting them immediately behind the head (Fig. 1). However, 1 calf was hit along the lower back. […]
wounds from talon punctures were noted behind the ears and across the top of the head. In some cases, talons punctured the skull and entered the brain cavity"
"Fig. 1. (A) Domestic calf weighing approximately 41kg […]; this animal was paralyzed following the attack and later euthanized"
What this means is that golden eagles can damage the spinal chord, causing fatal damage quickly, in prey items at least as large and robust as this 41kg calf. Since the reported cases ranged from 41 to 114kg, likely larger.
So obviously, as eagle could also do that with a bobcat 4 times smaller than the calf, as far the weaponery is concerned.
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 13:54:23 GMT 5
The supposed "training" is exactly how a wild eagle would do it. The only difference is the human presence, which will obviously make the eagle take greater risks than if it was a solitary wild animal. Any source for those wolves being subadult? 30kg seems about right… That they were running away proves that they were aware of the eagle. Why do you think they did that if it was that much of a disadvantage? They actually tried to fight back, unsucessfully in most cases of course. Anyway, I guess I didn’t suceed in explaining to you why eagles manage to kill such large opponents, so I’ll do it again: they can swoop down on them whanever they want, from whatever angle they want, and position their talons freely. This gives them a huge initial advantage over a terrestrial animal that is slower, closer to the ground and that first has to position a bite via grappling, since as soon as the two really get the time to grapple it will already be too late in most cases. You are now even contradicting yourself. and yes, golden eagles can kill cats in struggles, considering at least two examples have been brought forth on this thread alone. So the eagle doesn’t have muscles?  the eagles feathers will cushion a blow just as well as the bobcat’s fur does–but that’s actually worth more because the bobcats pawswipes are rather based on blunt force than the eagle’s talons–the former don’t just stab through it. Housecats usually aren’t domesticated to the extent of them not having natural hunting ability etc., all they are is familiarised with humans. Only very spoiled pets would be that domesticated, and cats usually aren’t. So, can you explain to me how exactly a cat’s supposed domestication impairs it when fighting an eagle? Well, servals don’t kill adult eagles either. Is it supposed to go this way? I bring up something, you say "not impressive"? Get over it, we have to work with what we have and the vast majority of wild encounters doesn’t get recorded. Eagles have been proven to be able to kill sizeable cats, at least their own size. |
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 20:12:58 GMT 5
I think you then have to read it again. "…the eagles typically attacked most calves by hitting them immediately behind the head (Fig. 1). However, 1 calf was hit along the lower back. […]
wounds from talon punctures were noted behind the ears and across the top of the head. In some cases, talons punctured the skull and entered the brain cavity"
"Fig. 1. (A) Domestic calf weighing approximately 41kg […]; this animal was paralyzed following the attack and later euthanized"What this means is that golden eagles can damage the spinal chord, causing fatal damage quickly, in prey items at least as large and robust as this 41kg calf. Since the reported cases ranged from 41 to 114kg, likely larger. So obviously, as eagle could also do that with a bobcat 4 times maller than the calf, as far the weaponery is concerned. Oh ok cool. |
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 20:31:02 GMT 5
TRAINED eagles kill SUBADULT wolves trying to run away, wolves can't even use their forelimbs for grappling. The supposed "training" is exactly how a wild eagle would do it. The only difference is the human presence, which will obviously make the eagle take greater risks than if it was a solitary wild animal. Any source for those wolves being subadult? 30kg seems about right… That they were running away proves that they were aware of the eagle. Why do you think they did that if it was that much of a disadvantage? They actually tried to fight back, unsucessfully in most cases of course. Anyway, I guess I didn’t suceed in explaining to you why eagles manage to kill such large opponents, so I’ll do it again: they can swoop down on them whanever they want, from whatever angle they want, and position their talons freely. This gives them a huge initial advantage over a terrestrial animal that is slower, closer to the ground and that first has to position a bite via grappling, since as soon as the two really get the time to grapple it will already be too late in most cases. You are now even contradicting yourself. and yes, golden eagles can kill cats in struggles, considering at least two examples have been brought forth on this thread alone. So the eagle doesn’t have muscles? the eagles feathers will cushion a blow just as well as the bobcat’s fur does–but that’s actually worth more because the bobcats pawswipes are rather based on blunt force than the eagle’s talons–the former don’t just stab through it. Housecats usually aren’t domesticated to the extent of them not having natural hunting ability etc., all they are is familiarised with humans. Only very spoiled pets would be that domesticated, and cats usually aren’t. So, can you explain to me how exactly a cat’s supposed domestication impairs it when fighting an eagle? Well, servals don’t kill adult eagles either. Is it supposed to go this way? I bring up something, you say "not impressive"? Get over it, we have to work with what we have and the vast majority of wild encounters doesn’t get recorded. Eagles have been proven to be able to kill sizeable cats, at least their own size. I think the average is 110 pounds, not 66. If they run away it also means they can't fight back until its to late.They can not swoop down from what ever angle they want, the cat can turn and will always face it. Golden eagles kill subadults or females and no 'examples' of this has been posted. Uhh... last time I checked thick fur was far better protecting than thin skin and feathers. Cats do use their claws btw. I doubt the eagle is agile enough to stab a cat with talons. As I said before cats has very little experience so it won't know how to deal with something that fights back. When did I ever say servals can kill an adult eagle? Stop trying to use crowned eagles killing subadult servals as 'proof' that a harpy eagle can kill an adult bobcat. |
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 20:58:17 GMT 5
Eagles have killed various mustelids, felids and canids, rodents including hare and rabits (if those aren’t agile, what is?), and various "ungulates"–alltogether very agile animals. Feline agility is getting overrated, it’s not as superior to every other animal on the planet as people seem to believe. The cat cannot keep the eagle from attacking it. eagles can hunt small prey species at all, ones that require a lot of precision and agility to catch because they are elusive. And if the eagle cannot catch the cat, how the hell is the cat supposed to catch the eagle? I was actually talking about martial eagles killing servals, although it makes sense for crowned eagles to do it too. This remains an instance of an eagle killing a sizeable cat, and it is thus an analogy for this scenario. So far nothing made me believe a 9kg eagle couldn’t kill a bobcat. This debating-stuff works both ways, you know? The burden of proof doesn’t exclusively last on me. You have to bring evidence for the cat being able to kill the eagle just as much as I have to bring evidence for the eagle being able to kill the cat. I and others have already posted several papers on this and the Tiger vs Kelenken-thread→ that prove how formidable eagles are, and that they are more than a match for cats of similar weight. |
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 22:00:59 GMT 5
Cats have also killed mustelids,canids.rodents,hares and eagles never kill adult wild cat at parity only subadults. Eagles only kill hares because they are weak and can't fight back properly.Feline agility is better than eagles on the ground, and if the eagle tries to kill it from the air all the cat has to do is turn and face the eagle so it won't be vulnerable.The cat can keep the eagle from attacking it by dodging the talons and grabbing the eagle when it tries to swoop down.
In order for the eagle to win it has to get involved in a struggle with the cat,or if the eagle is flying at low altitudes the cat can jump up and catch it in mid air cats have done this though its by ambush.
Why can't you understand that they never kill adults? and IMO a bobcat would kill any serval in a fight.
Nobody has posted anything about a eagle killing a cat on here actually I think only me and pckts posted the account of the norwegian forest cat kitten damaging a golden eagle to the point where it can't move.
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Weasel
Junior Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Weasel on May 3, 2014 23:13:54 GMT 5
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 23:36:11 GMT 5
And can cats kill wolves or coyotes three times they size? I doubt it.
House cats afaik don’t even kill foxes or badgers, and a racoon would give any cat a run for its money.
I didn’t write that stuff about hares because hares are formidable, I wrote it because they are agile. An eagle can catch a hare (or a mouse, or a sparrow…), requiring considerable speed and precision in placing its talons, so you aren’t exactly convincing me that a cat can dodge an attacking eagle like a ninja.
The cat could certainly escape the eagle (at least momentarily) while both are on the ground–obviously, the eagle cannot run very fast (its method of fighting on the ground is simply to lunge itself at its opponent talons first, which works well enough). But that will only be a temporary solution. In the end, the eagle can fight the cat when it wants, where it wants.
You must realise the argument "can simply keep facing it" also applies to the eagle. All it has to to is keep its talons between it and the cat. So what?
The eagle still has the better chances to succeed with its attack.
Do I really have to post the incident with the coyote, again? I’m loosing count of how often I have to repost those papers just because you guys never seem to read them. The eagle only made contact for a very short time, which was enough to puncture its lung and aorta, causing the coyote’s subsequent death. It could do the same to a cat. In fact, an eagle striking at a similar-sized feline’s head or neck would have a good chance of killing the mammal instantly. A struggle won’t even ensure in that case.
I don’t find it very relevant what you think about how formidable servals are, I already explained why that’s not really important, otherwise: whom would you favour, a house cat or an adult coyote?
Don’t you think a harpy would kill any martial or crowned eagle in a fight? You’d better do considering the harpy is twice the size…
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Post by theropod on May 3, 2014 23:45:05 GMT 5
Because you seem to have such an aversion to sources and reasons! I did actually. Firstly (and hopefully for the last time), Olendorff 1976→ reports 8 cases of golden eagle predation on house cats in North America (keep in mind that’s only what made it into the scientific literature!), and I would be delighted if you would start looking at the papers I post. Secondly, this→:  That "kitten" may have damaged the eagle "to the point where it can't move", but not to the point were it couldn’t eat half of it. Considering the eagle had already consumed part of the cat, that "kitten" may not have been that small either. |
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