Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 20, 2019 6:16:17 GMT 5
Bear v tiger! Astonishing battle between two ferocious animals is caught on film... but who came out on top?
Video shows a tiger and a sloth bear fighting in an Indian national park
Tiger starts the fight but towards the end, the bear is charging at it
Expert say the bear's long fur saves it, as tiger cannot get a proper grip
A true battle of the beasts took place in a national park in western India when a tiger picked a fight with a bear - and lost.
Video footage filmed by a group of visitors in Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra state, shows the two predators' fierce fight.
Witnesses say the fight began when the tiger attacked the bear, a female sloth bear with a cub.
Scroll down for video
Battle of the beasts: A group visiting Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra state, India, caught a fight between a bear and a tiger on tape.
Playing no games: The tiger attacked, but the bear showed that she was not going to be intimidated by the male predator.
The tiger had reportedly been cooling itself in a watering hole when mother bear and her cub arrived.
The tiger, a male called Matkasur, is said to view the watering hole as it's territory and sought to defend it.
The video shows that the tiger initially had the upper paw, but it struggles to pin the bear down.
An expert says that the tiger would have had problems getting a proper grip of the sloth bear through her long fur, and roles are soon reversed.
That must hurt! The sloth bear is seen biting the tiger's leg, and getting mostly the skin.
Apex predator: The tiger appears to have been defending its territory - a watering hole the sloth bear had come to with her cub.
Strongest wins? The tiger initally had the upper hand and appear to be the predator set to win the fight between them.
Changing game: However, as the tiger struggled to keep the sloth bear down, she soon had the upper hand and was seen charging at the tiger.
Towards the end of the fight, the tiger could be seen running for its life, bloodied and injured.
'As you can see in the video, the sloth bear was so exhausted. They can't outrun tigers,' Dr Anish Andheria, President of Wildlife Conservation Trust told NDTV.
'The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip.'
After a while, the sloth bear seems to become the more dominant in the fight, and is seen charging after the tiger even after it has escaped its grip.
The end of the film sees the tiger retreating after being chased away by the sloth bear.
Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 20, 2019 6:28:14 GMT 5
shish02.livejournal.com/7269.html "However, interest in nature, as a rule, arises from attempts to find answers to "children's" questions. In fairness, it is worth noting that the relationship between the Ussuri tiger and the brown bear still attracted the attention of professionals. Nevertheless, there is not so much reliable information about resolving conflict situations between the two “owners” of the taiga. S.P. Kucherenko notes that the average tiger is always stronger than the average bear. Of the 17, reliably known to him, cases of tiger fights with a brown bear in Sikhote Alin in 1965-1976. in 8 cases the animals dispersed, in 6 the tiger defeated, in 3 the bear defeated. In addition, 9 cases of tiger attacks on bears in dens were recorded (the tiger crushed and ate 7 adult animals and 9 cubs). But a careful analysis of the relationships of these predators leads the author to conclude that the brown bear is more aggressive (especially in hunger). The tiger tries to attack medium-sized bears. A tigress protecting tiger cubs fights with any bear and dies more often [1]. According to the materials of the zoologist V.E. Kostogloda, from 28 cases of fights of these two predators studied by him, priority in attack was on the side of a brown bear. V.E. Bone clodger recorded 7 attacks of brown bears on tigers and 6 attacks of tigers on bears. Of the 28 fights already mentioned between the tiger and the bear, the tiger won in 11 cases, the bear defeated in 9 cases, and the animals dispersed in 8 cases. Among 9 dead tigers, there were 5 adults; the rest were cubs [2]. The data of V.E. Kostogloda about the greater initiative of the bears in the power resolution of conflicts with the tiger, were later confirmed by the same S.P. Kucherenko, who pointed out that out of 44 authentically recorded cases of fights, the initiative in the attack belonged to the bear in 13, the tiger - in nine (in 22 cases the instigator could not be determined).In the course of these fights, 14 bears and 8 tigers died (in 22 cases the animals dispersed, having received quite severe wounds) [3]. V. Sysoev reports about 4 tiger battles with a bear (two ended in favor of the bear, the tiger defeated in one and dispersed in another animal). The hunter G. Gorokhov pointed out that out of 10 collisions of adult tigers with a brown bear, in 5 cases the predators dispersed, in 3 the tiger defeated, in 2 the bear [5]. V.S. Khramtsov in the work "On the relationship of bears and tigers in the spurs of the Reserve Range" wrote that for 1989-1990. in the Lazovsky Reserve, 8 cases of death of white-breasted bears from tigers were established and only one case of death of a brown bear from the “master of the jungle” was recorded. There were no facts of the death of tigers from bears [6]. A.G. Yudakov and I.G. Nikolaev for three seasons of winter stationary observations only twice encountered the facts of eating tigers of bears. And then, it was about white-breasted bears [7]. At the same time, according to K.N. Tkachenko, in the tiger feces he studied, the brown bear accounted for 18.5%, while the white-breasted bear accounted for only 14.8%. In general, in the diet of the tiger, the brown bear firmly held an honorable third place, letting go only wild boar (37%) and red deer (29.6%) [8]. Biologist N.N. Rukovsky asked 42 hunter-guards of the Primorsky Territory to clarify the relationship between a tiger and a bear. Of these, 7 people replied that the tiger specifically hunts for the bear; 6 people said that the bear walks in the footsteps of the tiger, collecting leftover food; 14 - talked about tiger fights with a bear without a tragic outcome; two recalled cases when a bear strangled a tiger; 11 claimed that the tiger killed the bear. N. Rukovsky himself, as well as most other authors, believes that fights between predators occur most often in the hungry (for a bear) years, when the rods collide with tigers near the killed animals. And only in rare cases can a tiger (most often a young one) become a victim. The tiger prefers to hunt not for brown, but for Himalayan bears. N. Rukovsky himself in the wake once determined that a brown bear killed a tiger. The bear was very large (this was visible on the trail), and the young tiger was about 4 years old (it was visible on the skull). The battlefield itself (broken fir trunks with a thick arm, scattered shreds of wool, blood) testified to a long and fierce struggle [14]."
Post by mountainlord on Nov 21, 2019 18:31:00 GMT 5
You do realise that the last account (Journal) you posted favours the tiger, right? S.P Kucherenko - an undisputed Russian authority - stated that "The average tiger is always stronger than the average bear."
The journal also states that: "But indeed from the scientific literature it follows that the tiger not only is NOT inferior to the bear, but even more frequently it leaves as conqueror"
So that doesn't favour the bear at all. It favours the tiger. So that doesn't help you in this debate.
And why do you keep posting IRRELEVANT accounts of tiger interactions with sloth bears? This debate is about tigers vs BROWN bears. I can easily show you TONS of accounts of tigers slaughtering and eating sloth bears and black bears, left, right and centre....but I'm not because its not relevant to this topic. So please, stick to the topic.
Also, the source that claims that the John Vaillant book is "Fiction" is completely INCORRECT. I don't know why that was written. Its a well known fact that John Vaillants book is a 100% FACTUAL book based on reality. Go look it up. Vaillant himself said that he personally interviewed many Russian biologists, rangers, naturalists, locals, natives etc....and they told him that the tiger dominates the Brown bear.
Vaillants book is even called "The Tiger: A TRUE STORY of vengeance and survival. LOL....Its even in the title!
Now, regarding Vaillants book:
"The large and malevolent tiger at the center of this nonfiction hunting tale."
"The largest tiger subspecies, the Amur can survive in virtually any climate, think strategically, rip bears to shreds and eat almost anything."
Here, listen to Vaillant speak about his book and go to the 11:29 mark and see what he says about tigers vs Brown bears:
Here's the documentary about the case that Vaillant wrote about in his book, PROVING its a completely NONFICTION book:
Its a true story that happened in 1997, of a male tiger that carried out a premeditated revenge killing on a man named "Vladimir Markov". Get your facts right.
And here's what Vaillant wrote, right in the opening chapter of his book....
This is a book about Russians and their tigers, and much of the information in it comes from Russian sources, including many interviews.
So the source you posted claiming that this is a "Fiction" book, is clearly incorrect and wrong! Everything Vaillant wrote was based on FACTS and was told to him by undisputed experts and authorities who worked with tigers their whole life.
So these statements are based on 100% facts told to him by the experts, he also references the pioneer Amur tiger biologist, Lev Kaplanov:
I'm sorry, but Vaillant was told by the experts that the tiger is more dominant over the Brown bear, and will even kill bears solely on principle. Based on the observations of biologists and hunters.
Vaillant was also told by the native Russians, that they regard the tiger to be the UNDISPUTED LORD OF THE TAIGA, a perfect hunter and a supreme being:
Natives have lived alongside tigers and bears for thousands of years, yet they widely regard the TIGER - not the Brown bear - but the tiger to be the undisputed lord and master of the forest. That says it all.
Last Edit: Nov 21, 2019 18:33:35 GMT 5 by mountainlord
Post by mountainlord on Nov 21, 2019 18:52:33 GMT 5
And why didn't you address the video I posted where the Russian biologist states that in a fight between a tiger and Brown bear....AS A RULE, the tiger wins? Why didn't you address that video?
Every single fight statistic documented by experts, shows one consistent pattern....and that is that the tiger is the usual winner in fights, and in some statistics, even DOMINATES the Brown bear in fights.
The funny thing is, even in the statistics which shows that the bear initiated the fights more often than not, they still lost fights more often than not. LOL...
No matter what situation it is, the tiger always ends up winning most fights. That speaks volumes. The Brown bear in general, is always on the losing end of a fight.
And yeah, in most cases, when tigers hunt adult Brown bears, they mostly target the females, however, that doesn't mean from time to time, an adult male Brown bear isn't taken. There's some cases of large male Brown bears killed and eaten by tigers. Kerley also said that tigers even prey on LARGER Brown bears, which could also indicate adult male bears.
By the way, you cherry-pick one study and leave out all the rest of the studies and data which confirm that tigers regularly prey on bears. It depends on region, in Primorye, tigers will habitually hunt both Brown bears and Black bears. Studies have proven this.
Scientific data and studies proving that bears are regularly hunted by tigers and make up a large significant portion of the tigers diet
Across all sites, tiger diet varied seasonally, with tigers consuming more bear, and less wild boar biomass during the snow-free months.
In addition, bears constituted a significantly higher proportion of tiger diet in the summer, and while not significant, badgers increased in the diet of tigers during the snow-free period as well"...
The increased predation on bears and badgers is likely due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young, although tigers do prey on adult bears. Amur tiger predation on bear is not a new phenomenon, but our results, in addition to identifying seasonality in tiger predation of bears, also suggests that bears constitute a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period..
Now read this data from biologists, which also shows that tigers regularly predate on bears:
Claws of ADULT BEARS were found repeatedly in the excreta of tigers:
The suggestion that tigers attack bears only when there is an insufficient amount of its usual food, is not quite correct. Since attacks take place also at their high numbers.
I posted all the data and studies in this thread, which proves that bears comprise a LARGE PORTION of the tigers diet, even up to 31%. The impressive thing is, that tigers mainly hunt and kill Brown bears and black bears (Including adult bears) in the summer months, when bears are at their biggest and healthiest.
20 minute fight with a brown bear... after Dale ambushed the grizzly she-bear which was equal in weight but much shorter in length/height he discovered that an adult she-bear is no easy kill. Dale/Misha the infamous "bear killer" had killed a great many juvenile bears and two adult she-bears. Both she-bears proved to be no easy kill for the big male tiger. Most likely, a case of mistaking the adult she-bears as juvenile males which can be the same size.
The Grizzly ( Ursus arctos ) "Boss of the Woods" is the Achilles' heel of the big cats.
20 minute fight with a brown bear... after Dale ambushed the grizzly she-bear which was equal in weight but much shorter in length/height he discovered that an adult she-bear is no easy kill. Dale/Misha the infamous "bear killer" had killed a great many juvenile bears and two adult she-bears. Both she-bears proved to be no easy kill for the big male tiger. Most likely, a case of mistaking the adult she-bears as juvenile males which can be the same size.
Brobear, seriously can you read properly? That account was from 1973!! Dale killed those bears in 1997, more than TWO DECADES after the Gorokhov account I posted. That was another tiger that killed a Brown bear in a 20 minute battle, reported more than two decades before Dale's time.
And for the last time, DALE IS NOT MISHA. Dale was reported to have killed at least FOUR adult female Brown bears. Project biologists only found TWO large adult female brown bears killed by Misha.
Another tiger in 2001, also killed a 200 kg female brown bear after a fight. Altogether, thats SEVEN adult female brown bears that were killed by tigers. Four by Dale, two by Misha and one by another tiger.
Dale was also known as "Dima" aka M20. Please, go and read Chapter 19, the info is all there confirming what I'm saying.
Overall, every single fight statistic reported by Russian biologists consistently shows that the tiger is the usual winner in a fight against a Brown bear. You cannot deny these facts. Even over kill-disputes, the tiger dominates the Brown bear. I have the accounts. When I posted them, you completely ignored them and refused to address the accounts because you know for a fact, you had no refutation.
Post by mountainlord on Nov 22, 2019 20:03:36 GMT 5
Ok Brobear, here's proof directly from Chapter 19 which clearly proves that "Dale" is NOT "Misha", and that these were two different tigers that habitually hunted and killed bears, including adult Brown bears, usually with no problems.
Dale also known as "M20" aka "Dima" was reported to have killed FOUR adult female brown bears and one adult male Himalayan black bear:
Out of the four adult brown bears "Dale" killed, only ONE gave him a tough fight, the other bears were killed with no problems: (1997)
Dale was never once stated to be "seriously injured" not once. That was a blatant lie made-up by Bear fanatics on the old AVA. The account itself doesn't say it.
Now, in 2001 another different tiger also attacked and killed a similar-sized adult female Brown bear and killed her after a fight.
Here's the account where Dale (M20) killed an adult male Himalayan black bear:
The bear tried escaping up a tree, but Dale jumped, pulled him off and killed and ate him for 5 days:
So I have clearly proven to you, that Dale killed FOUR adult female Brown bears, Misha killed TWO adults and another tiger (2001) killed another similar-sized adult female Brown bear in a fight. Thats SEVEN adult female brown bears killed and eaten by tigers.
Brobear, Dale was not "unusual". Its a well known fact, even stated by biologist Linda Kerley, that some tigers specialize in hunting Bears and will habitually hunt and kill both Brown bears and Black bears and even prey on LARGER Brown bears.
In summer, bears comprise a LARGE significant portion of tiger diet. As several studies/data has shown.
You also claimed that Dale killed a "great many JUVENILE bears"....Show me the source that claims that?? I've never heard of that before. The only bears that were found to be killed by Dale were all ADULT BEARS. Not juveniles, you made that up.
A tiger will ambush and kill a small juvenile bear and ( on rare occasion ) an adult she-bear. A mature male Russian grizzly will, when the opportunity presents itself, displace a tiger from his kill with no need for physical contact.
Yes, obviously "Misha=Dale" - the same tiger M20. He has killed 4 brown bear adult females, 1 cub and 1 adult male Black Asiatic bear.
No male adult brown bear was not found killed by tigers (according to WCS). The two brown bears killed with a struggle were females; the first one by M20, the second one (actually, the biggest prey estimated between 150 and 200 kg) by another tiger in August 2001. The second bear has seriously injured its enemy. All this is written in the book cited here by Warsaw.
The twenty-year-old Bieszczady bear, which died at the beginning of May in a fight for a female, will be displayed in the Educational Room of the "Birczańskie Forests" Promotion Complex in the Bircza Forest District. Such a decision was made by the Minister of the Environment, who gave permission for the predator to be prepared.
On the night of May 4-5, near Skorodne (Lipie Forest District, Lutowska Forest District), two male bears fought. One of the rivals was killed. The dead animal, lying in the creek, was found by forest workers and reported to Marek Bajda, the forester. The Carpathian Fauna Research Station of the Museum and the Institute of Zoology of the Polish Academy of Sciences in Ustrzyki Dolne was also notified - its employee, Dr. Roman Gula, made an on-site inspection. Their results left no doubt - the bear was killed in a fight for a female by a younger competitor. This is also supported by the fact that currently there is a swarm in these predators. The analysis of traces allowed to establish that the encounter above the clash took place above the creek, near the old hives. Then there was a fight, the weaker one escaped and after about 100 meters of chase, the winner killed his prey by breaking his left hind leg and pulling a 0.5 x 0.5 meter slice of skin on his left side. Extensive haematomas and emaciated muscles were found. This is the first such case on our territory.
The killed bear was in poor condition; it was emaciated, with defects in its dentition. However, its dimensions must be respected. It was 210 cm long along its back, weighing 225 kg, and had a neck circumference of 90 cm. Dimensions of the back paw: length 27 cm and width 16.5 cm. Front paw: length 17 cm, width 16.5 cm.
Currently there are 26 bears living in the Lutowiska Forest Inspectorate, and over 100 in the Krosno RDSF forests.
Post by elvispresley68 on Dec 24, 2020 19:31:01 GMT 5
Most of the weight data available on grizzly bears is a mix between coastal and inland populations with the former usually having larger sample sizes due to a larger number of individual bears inhabiting the coastal regions of the USA.
With that being said, the grizzly should have some weight advantage over the tiger which would make me favour it. The bear should have notable advantages in terms of durability/grappling/robusticity/stamina/strength based on comparative morphology and thus very good chances imo.
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