LeopJag
Member
Panthera kryptikos (cryptic, evasive panther)
Posts: 440
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Post by LeopJag on Apr 14, 2014 3:10:56 GMT 5
I don't have much to add to this, but in my current opinion that at parity - cougar 7/10. based off Blackice' big post, wolves are underestimated vs large felines and it does appear that in the wild cougars have a healthy respect for them much like leopards do with hyenas.
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Post by Superpredator on Apr 14, 2014 18:54:01 GMT 5
I give the cougar a slight edge, close match though.
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Post by Admantus on Apr 21, 2014 15:49:24 GMT 5
At equal weights, I would say the wolf wins face to face.
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pckts
Junior Member
Posts: 158 
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Post by pckts on Apr 21, 2014 23:42:02 GMT 5
The cougar wins, I don't see the wolf being able to kill the cougar without being overpowered first. They seem to do that only cause they are bigger by a good 20-30lbs. This fight is assuming equal weights. Fact: Grey wolves have larger triceps than cougar. Fact??? I am curious about this "fact" Please post the measurements of Grey Wolf Triceps Here is what I could find on the cougar  This shows that the Canis lupus has more tricep muscle percentage of the entire forelimb, but that doesn't mean larger triceps, by any means. The cougars biceps take up a larger percentage than the Canis. What this really shows is that a wolf needs its triceps more than any other forearm muscle. Triceps are used for pushing, so it is probably because of the wolfs need to push off the ground to tug its prey back towards it with its mouth compared to a cougar who will need larger triceps for pushing as well as biceps for pulling. The fact that cougars have retractable claws and need to pull and push prey depending on the scenario. We would have to have forearm measurements and muscle weight to determine what the sizes of each arm muscles would be. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 19, 2014 19:09:10 GMT 5
I hate to bring this up again, but IIRC, after Black Ice had his big post on Carnivora, I don't think I recall anyone actually trying to refute it, merely stating he was using Gun's old arguments on old Carnivora and he was using straw arguments......
What I basically got the impression of was that the cougar uses its forelimbs for grappling (it is superior in this regard) and its jaws just....well.....they bite. On the other hand, the wolf uses its limbs for pushing and knocking its foes down and its jaws not only bite, but are also used for grappling (they are even analogous to felid forelimbs, and it is superior in the mouth grappling department).
Not saying I back either; I don't exactly have an opinion on this. But at equal weights, no matter who wins more often than not, I still believe this is a nonetheless close fight (I don't see why either would be particularly easy to defeat).
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Post by Runic on Jun 20, 2014 2:07:38 GMT 5
I hate to bring this up again, but IIRC, after Black Ice had his big post on Carnivora, I don't think I recall anyone actually trying to refute it, merely stating he was using Gun's old arguments on old Carnivora and he was using straw arguments...... What I basically got the impression of was that the cougar uses its forelimbs for grappling (it is superior in this regard) and its jaws just....well.....they bite. On the other hand, the wolf uses its limbs for pushing and knocking its foes down and its jaws not only bite, but are also used for grappling (they are even analogous to felid forelimbs, and it is superior in the mouth grappling department). Not saying I back either; I don't exactly have an opinion on this. But at equal weights, no matter who wins more often than not, I still believe this is a nonetheless close fight (I don't see why either would be particularly easy to defeat). The only ones who said I was using straw argument or something were the ones either too childish to read it or to proud to be subjective. Glad to see someone read it! |
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Post by theropod on Jun 20, 2014 3:00:36 GMT 5
Being cursorial, it makes sense for the wolf to have larger triceps, proportional to the other limb muscles and realistically also in absolute terms, that’s a common pattern in cursorial animals as compared to limb grapplers.
However that doesn’t equal overall forelimb strenght.
Note that I’m not saying that cougars in fact do have stronger limbs, and I muscularity alone is not suitable as an indicator of the limbs’ usefulness in a fight anyway. But just saying "this one has a bigger triceps" is not very meaningful.
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Post by Runic on Jun 20, 2014 5:26:55 GMT 5
Being cursorial, it makes sense for the wolf to have larger triceps, proportional to the other limb muscles and realistically also in absolute terms, that’s a common pattern in cursorial animals as compared to limb grapplers. However that doesn’t equal overall forelimb strenght. Note that I’m not saying that cougars in fact do have stronger limbs, and I muscularity alone is not suitable as an indicator of the limbs’ usefulness in a fight anyway. But just saying "this one has a bigger triceps" is not very meaningful. They've got more on their side then triceps. |
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Fragillimus335
Member
Sauropod fanatic, and dinosaur specialist
Posts: 573
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Post by Fragillimus335 on Jun 20, 2014 6:16:07 GMT 5
Cats usually smoke dogs at parity. I back the cougar 7/10
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Post by Runic on Jun 20, 2014 9:21:15 GMT 5
Cats usually smoke dogs at parity. I back the cougar 7/10 From what I recall pantherines smoke domestic dogs at parity. With everything else it's pretty much the reverse. Cougar and Wolves are exempt because they're never the same size when they encounter. But domestic dogs be tearing up domestic cats at parity. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 20, 2014 15:48:50 GMT 5
That depends on the dog in question. There certainly is a ton of breeds that would stand no chance against most domestic cats at parity.
You mean in terms of limb muscularity? Could you post evidence of that?
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Post by Runic on Jun 20, 2014 16:55:37 GMT 5
That depends on the dog in question. There certainly is a ton of breeds that would stand no chance against most domestic cats at parity. You mean in terms of limb muscularity? Could you post evidence of that? You never hear of house cats killing any dog bigger than a chihuahua. And yea it's in that big ass post im not about to look for. Wolves also have more powerful stability muscles and are better at holding down stuff. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 20, 2014 19:50:40 GMT 5
What do you define as "stability muscles"?
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Post by Runic on Jun 20, 2014 20:04:29 GMT 5
What do you define as "stability muscles"? it's more likely for the cougar to lose balance than the wolf. |
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Post by theropod on Jun 20, 2014 20:45:58 GMT 5
You didn’t answer my question.
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