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Post by theropod on Jun 22, 2014 22:41:45 GMT 5
By this logic, an ant can give a human a run for its money…
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 22, 2014 23:58:26 GMT 5
Well, after this logic, even in mismatches, animals can give each other a run for their money. After all, wolverine vs bear is also what everyone would consider as a mismatch, but the wolverine will be able to bite the bear, hurt it and so on. There is a reason why larger predators normally avoid them. Or in a cougar vs Haast's eagle battle the eagle can exhaust the cougar or give it painful injuries with its talons, but that doesn't change the near-mismatch status, assuming the Haast's eagle can't land a strike from above. I believe Runic is intelligent enough to know that the wolf will not win this with one bite and will end up exhausted and so on, but that doesn't change the fact that the cougar doesn't stand much of a chance. If this is exactly your point, fine, but this argument can be applied to so many face-offs where we would say "mismatch". I just felt that he was underestimating the cougar, that is all. I know that a cougar outweighed by that much would lose. I just don't think it would be easy. |
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 22, 2014 23:59:28 GMT 5
By this logic, an ant can give a human a run for its money… I don't know about that. A person could just step on the ant. A wolf can't just "step" on a cougar in this case. |
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 23, 2014 0:04:52 GMT 5
Thank you for breaking it down to him. By his logic a wolf would give a jaguar a run for it's money cause at one point it's gonna bite the cat lol No that isn't my logic at all. A jaguar would throttle a wolf. The wolf would probably get some bites in but it would get destroyed fast. My argument on why I think the cougar could hold its own against a heavier wolf for a while is because of what I said previously which still hasn't been addressed. The female cougar here is lighter, but still has better forearms, claws, agility, and more explosive. These haven't been addressed and instead, you and two other members say "Well that logic can be applied to...". Not necessarily. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 23, 2014 0:10:16 GMT 5
Thank you for breaking it down to him. By his logic a wolf would give a jaguar a run for it's money cause at one point it's gonna bite the cat lol No that isn't my logic at all. A jaguar would throttle a wolf. The wolf would probably get some bites in but it would get destroyed fast. My argument on why I think the cougar could hold its own against a heavier wolf for a while is because of what I said previously which still hasn't been addressed. The female cougar here is lighter, but still has better forearms, claws, agility, and more explosive. These haven't been addressed and instead, you and two other members say "Well that logic can be applied to...". Not necessarily. Â That in fact is your logic. A 175lb wolf would throttle a cougar female yet "it'd get some scratches." So by your logic a wolf will give a jaguar a run for it's money cause it's gonna get a few bites in. And as I said lone wolves have killed female cougar before and the odds of the wolf being anywhere close to max size is non existent. |
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 23, 2014 0:18:58 GMT 5
Alright Ill give in. I see what you're saying.
But seriously, I have been looking for accounts like that for years now with no source. Can you please give me one? I remember reading someone reference that, but I couldn't find the source.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 23, 2014 17:58:16 GMT 5
For the topic's sake, this is Black Ice's big post in the Carnivora variant of this thread. carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8641931&t=9715307Again, let it be known that I am undecided at equal weights and that I favor the cougar at average weights (as IIRC, it is substantially more massive, thus would have other advantages at its side). Edit 5/3/16: Gun to my head, I think I may go with the cougar even at parity, although I still think the wolf would present itself as a formidable opponent. I believe that there are some things that could counter superior forelimb grappling ability in a fight, and they include the following: Unfortunately, the wolf has none of these advantages going for it. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 23, 2014 18:02:57 GMT 5
Alright Ill give in. I see what you're saying. But seriously, I have been looking for accounts like that for years now with no source. Can you please give me one? I remember reading someone reference that, but I couldn't find the source. For what? |
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 23, 2014 20:58:44 GMT 5
Alright Ill give in. I see what you're saying. But seriously, I have been looking for accounts like that for years now with no source. Can you please give me one? I remember reading someone reference that, but I couldn't find the source. For what? Wolves killing cougars one on one. |
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Post by Runic on Jun 24, 2014 0:30:29 GMT 5
Wolves killing cougars one on one. It's in the link by Ausar. |
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 24, 2014 0:41:32 GMT 5
Wow. I am kind of surprised now. It happens more than I think. Just wow.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 26, 2014 18:05:41 GMT 5
I have some uncertainties; do extant felids use any of their teeth (other than their four canines) to fight? Also, do canids use only their incisors and canines to fight?
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Post by creature386 on Jun 26, 2014 19:05:39 GMT 5
I know that they use their carnassials for the slicing work while eating a carcass, but I don't know if that helps in a fight.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 27, 2014 6:47:13 GMT 5
Ok, I felt as if I should post this here since it has to do with the topic, but here's what Vodmeister replied to me about regarding felids' abilities to use their jaws on a thread on Carnivora.
I'm going to respond by saying this: I watched the beginning of the video again, and I could be wrong, but I'm fairly convinced that the only reason Raja was able to get a bite in on the gaur's throat was that his rather brief (yet still existent) use of his forelimbs allowed him to (though you acknowledged this, I think this hits the nail in the head). He was able to control the gaur's head with his forelimbs and right after that, he got a really good grip onto the bovine's throat. He then let go with his forelimbs and held onto it with just his jaws for a while, I'm guessing due to the fact that there was no violent struggle; he probably didn't need to use his forelimbs that being the case. In a nutshell, I honestly see this as nothing more than a felid using its forelimbs to get a bite and merely holding that bite for a while against quarry that really did nothing more than just stand there and move a bit.
I really don't think that's anything too special, and in fact, that's one way I can envision the cougar at times killing the wolf at equal weights; by grappling it (successfully avoiding the jaws and being pushed/shoved/knocked down by the wolf's forelimbs) and landing a skull, throat, or nape bite.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Runic on Jun 28, 2014 0:47:21 GMT 5
I agree. Im curious as to how people think a cougar is going to attempt to grab a wolf however.
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