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Post by Vodmeister on Jun 28, 2014 9:55:05 GMT 5
Wow. I am kind of surprised now. It happens more than I think. Just wow. Malikc, didn't you say that you'd comfortably back a chimp over a wolf? You see, I told you that you underestimated wolves a lot in the past.  |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Jun 28, 2014 15:50:41 GMT 5
I went into this thread hoping that Vod would have replied to me (I'm kind of curious on this subject, as generally uninterested I am in these two animals).
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Post by malikc6 on Jun 29, 2014 13:04:56 GMT 5
Wow. I am kind of surprised now. It happens more than I think. Just wow. Malikc, didn't you say that you'd comfortably back a chimp over a wolf? You see, I told you that you underestimated wolves a lot in the past. Vod we agree for different reasons though. A wolf would kill a chimp more than the other way around, but I think the wolf would win more, is because the chimp is more likely to panic and get overwhelmed. It also has less balance and can be easily knocked over. In any case though, I don't think the wolf would win flawlessly though. The wolf has many advantages over the chimp but the chimp does have the strength of two to three men and has a gnarly bite of its own. The reason why I gave the chimp support back then is because I truly believe that a person can fight a wolf off. I felt that a stronger primate like the chimp could do it to, and they have a ferocious reputation. I believe that a thinking man fighting for survival should be able to fight the wolf off and probably even kill it. Of course this depends on size and weight for both parties. I think an average man that isn't overcome with panic and simply fights as hard as he can like pulling the wolf's ears, grab a leg, gouge the eyes, attempt to wrestle the wolf, punch the nose, or even try to choke the wolf could manage to injure the wolf enough for the wolf to give up and run away. The man will be badly injured of course. I also feel that a strong man (like some trained fighter/wrestler/football player/heavyweight etc) could probably even kill it if desperate enough. That's just how I visualize it. One could argue that a wolf is stronger than a chimp or than most strong men, but our bodies are designed differently. A wolf cannot pry a person's grip around it's neck. It has to shake and bite to free itself. If it couldn't do neither, it's screwed. |
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Post by Infinity Blade on Aug 23, 2014 21:27:01 GMT 5
www.2ndchance.info/bones-Valkenburg1987.pdf"Because of the greater mechanical advantage provided by a short face, a cat needs less muscle mass than a dog to produce the same bite force. Looked at another way, given a cat and a dog with similar sized muscles, the cat can produce more force at its canines."Anyone got any bite force studies with the size and bite force for both species other than "Bite forces and evolutionary adaptations to feeding ecology in carnivores" (Christiansen & Wroe, 2007) and "Bite club: comparative bite force in big biting mammals and the prediction of predatory behavior in fossil taxa" (Wroe et al., 2005)? In both of the aformentioned studies, C. lupus bit proportionately harder than P. concolor IIRC, which would mean that the former has proportionately more muscle mass than the cat in terms of jaw muscles. But I can't rely on just two studies. Btw, I know full well that bite force isn't everything to making a bite deadly. Edit: it came to me that this is just a matter of mechanical advantage and bite force, the former of which doesn't always equate to the latter. Edit 2: I have the impression that this comment isn't necessary, but even if not, oh well, just enjoy the study. 
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Post by Vodmeister on Oct 23, 2014 2:34:56 GMT 5
Just to keep this section alive: Cougar wins 8/10.
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Post by Venomous Dragon on Oct 23, 2014 2:55:40 GMT 5
I agree cougar wins.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Oct 23, 2014 3:24:38 GMT 5
IIRC, there was some talk on Carnivora casting doubt on what? ~70kg-ish wolves? I don't know.
Vod I know you liked my post, but do keep in mind that this would only apply if the adductor muscles of the two are just as strong, and it's plausible this isn't the case. I looked at Dinocrocuta's cougar vs. wolf skull comparison and the wolf's sagittal crest looked bigger and the zygomatic arches wider, ergo stronger jaw muscles (or at least if they're the same size, which the skulls are stated to be, but I can't be 100% sure).
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Post by Vodmeister on Oct 25, 2014 11:51:02 GMT 5
IIRC, there was some talk on Carnivora casting doubt on what? ~70kg-ish wolves? I don't know. I strongly question the existence of 85 kg wolves, but 70 kg wolves are more probable than not. “A very large male collected by Frank S. Glaser, July 12, 1939, on 70-Mile River, approximately 50 miles from its mouth in extreme east central Alaska, weighed 175 pounds,” "There also is mention of a 172-pound male with a stomach full of meat caught in the Northwest Territories in 1947 and a 157-pound wolf shot on the Savage River drainage in the Alaska Range in 1934." www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=503Overall, the evidence of the existence of >70 kg wolves is just too strong to be rejected, IMO. Also remember that typically, because humans have likely weighed less than 1% (?) of the global wolf population, that the absolute largest specimens have yet to be discovered. On average though, they are much smaller: "Of the 179 wolves Burch has captured in the Yukon-Charley Rivers National Preserve since 1993, the average weight for adult males is 111 pounds and for females it is 97." 50.4 kg is the heaviest average population known for wolves. I liked your post because it was informative. personal bias was rather secondary. As for your claim on the adductor muscles, generally speaking, the default assumption is that these muscles are equally strong for both animals, unless evidence is shown to prove otherwise. However, as you said, this is a large assumption (as they are completely different animals) based on inadequate reasoning, so I probably agree that no major conclusions can be pulled from it. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Oct 25, 2014 11:52:44 GMT 5
I went into this thread hoping that Vod would have replied to me (I'm kind of curious on this subject, as generally uninterested I am in these two animals). I'm sorry for being as blind as a bat. I never saw this comment until now! |
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Post by Runic on Oct 28, 2014 2:12:40 GMT 5
The necros.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 2:30:35 GMT 5
what necros?
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Post by dinosauria101 on Feb 7, 2019 19:48:16 GMT 5
I favor the wolf at parity and the mountain lion at average sizes.
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