Ussuri Brown Bear vs Siberian Tiger

[kodiak]

Sept 7, 2019 5:59:29 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

Please do not post racial slurs either.

Enough with the insults please

[elosha11]

Excuse me. Kodiak, I am a long time member of WoA, one of its first members, and a moderator. I have no reasons to believe dinosauria101 is doing any of the things you are claiming. If you have some evidence of this, show it. Otherwise, I'm recommending a much longer suspension, and then if behavior doesn't improve a permanent ban. The kind of posting I've seen from you and Mountain Lord is not tolerated here.

[dinosauria101]

kodiak

For when you return:
This is the ban schedule
Option # 1: Advice (as much as possible)
Option # 2: Warnings/Interventions (if advices do not work)
Option # 3: Temporary ban (3 days)
Option # 4: Temporary ban (7 days)
Option # 5: Temporary ban (1 month)
Option # 6: Permanent ban

You will have returned from the 1 month ban on October 6. If you do not stop this behavior, we will have to permanently ban you

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Generally I stay out of bear and big cat debates because I have decided that a brown bear wins at parity by 7/10. A bigger male brown bear will be immune to Siberian tiger predation, however, at equal weights, the tiger can put up a good fight and they prey on female Ussuri brown bears their own weight.

[dinosauria101]

Agreed.
The durability, stamina, and robusticity of the bear help it win at parity

[elosha11]

I will agree that a big male brown bear will most likely win, but I don't believe at "parity" a brown bear, male or female will beat a full grown male Amur tiger more often than not. But again, this is the problem of "parity" match ups between two unequally sized opponents. A 500-600 pound bear, while large, is not full grown or at the peak of its powers/fighting experience, whereas a cat that size (assuming not an overly old age) is at the height of his power. So a parity match up, like many of these match ups, is not really "parity". There is no way to make a perfectly "fair" match up here, and this applies to many interspecific one on one conflicts with disparate-sized opponents.

[dinosauria101]

I think if the sizes are within 40-50 percent difference, parity discussion is worthwhile.
But good point: this cannot be parity with 2 equal animals

Also I am glad we can start discussing who wins instead of the flame war.

[smedz]

To all, 

I know kodiak, he is a smart poster, but I will have a talk with him about this. 

But as for this topic, I did find some information from the paper "Interspecific Relations between the Amur Tiger (Panthera tigris altaica) and Brown( Ursus arctos) and Asiatic Black (Ursus thibetanus) Bears" 



"Collisions of bears with tigers at prey sites occur
when the tiger protects its prey at the approach of a
bear or when a tiger, returning to the remnants of its      
prey, finds the bear (Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod,

1976; Khramtsov and Zhivotchenko, 1981). The out-
come of such collisions varies."          




"In terms of the way in which bears took hold of tiger
prey, significant differences were revealed. Asiatic 
black bears mostly used the prey after the tigers have
left, where brown bears took the prey away from tigers
or shared it with them (Table 2). This is, apparently,
due to the fact that the Asiatic black bear avoids the
tiger to a greater degree than the brown bear."   



"Of the 45 cases of
encounters of tigers with brown bears (Kaplanov,
1948; Sysoev, 1950, 1960; Abramov, 1962; Bromley
1965; Rakov, 1970; Kucherenko, 1972; Gorokhov,
1973; Kostoglod, 1981; Khramtsov, 1993; our data),
the tiger was the initiator in 13 cases, the bear started
eight fights, and in the other cases, the attacker was
not established. In 51.1% of cases, the fights ended
with the death of the bear, in 26.7% with the death of
the tiger, and in 22.2% the animals broke up."

[dinosauria101]

smedz

Didn't kodiak debunk that?

[smedz]

dinosauria101

Nope, these were actual head-on fights. He's referring to the version that says 44 encounters rather than 45(typing error) and doesn't specify if they were fights or ambush hunts.

The stuff I copy-pasted here came from a paper sent to me by an expert when I asked them about this topic. So this version is the original version. I can copy-paste some more stuff from it if you want.

[dinosauria101]

smedz

That may be a good idea. I think it'll be useful for when kodiak is unbanned on Oct 6

[smedz]

Sept 23, 2019 0:47:27 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

smedz

That may be a good idea. I think it'll be useful for when kodiak is unbanned on Oct 6

I have an idea, is there a way to insert pdf's onto this site? 

[dinosauria101]

Sept 23, 2019 5:14:25 GMT 5 smedz said:

Sept 23, 2019 0:47:27 GMT 5 dinosauria101 said:

smedz

That may be a good idea. I think it'll be useful for when kodiak is unbanned on Oct 6

I have an idea, is there a way to insert pdf's onto this site? 

Just link them and you should be fine

[smedz]

  

Here it is, enjoyBB-18-45-853 AmurTigerKillBrBearBlBear Sery....pdf (340.03 KB)

[DonaldCengXiongAzuma]

Sept 22, 2019 20:57:48 GMT 5 smedz said:

To all, 

I know kodiak, he is a smart poster, but I will have a talk with him about this. 

But as for this topic, I did find some information from the paper "Interspecific Relations between the Amur Tiger (Panthera tigris altaica) and Brown( Ursus arctos) and Asiatic Black (Ursus thibetanus) Bears" 



"Collisions of bears with tigers at prey sites occur
when the tiger protects its prey at the approach of a
bear or when a tiger, returning to the remnants of its      
prey, finds the bear (Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod,

1976; Khramtsov and Zhivotchenko, 1981). The out-
come of such collisions varies."          




"In terms of the way in which bears took hold of tiger
prey, significant differences were revealed. Asiatic 
black bears mostly used the prey after the tigers have
left, where brown bears took the prey away from tigers
or shared it with them (Table 2). This is, apparently,
due to the fact that the Asiatic black bear avoids the
tiger to a greater degree than the brown bear."   



"Of the 45 cases of
encounters of tigers with brown bears (Kaplanov,
1948; Sysoev, 1950, 1960; Abramov, 1962; Bromley
1965; Rakov, 1970; Kucherenko, 1972; Gorokhov,
1973; Kostoglod, 1981; Khramtsov, 1993; our data),
the tiger was the initiator in 13 cases, the bear started
eight fights, and in the other cases, the attacker was
not established. In 51.1% of cases, the fights ended
with the death of the bear, in 26.7% with the death of
the tiger, and in 22.2% the animals broke up."

Good accounts. There is also one account where an Asiatic black bear did displace a Siberian tiger. However, as the second account reveals, it seems Asiatic black bears are less likely to take a carcass unless a tiger is really gone. Brown bears are more likely to be the ones to usurp.
Regarding the third account, the tiger started 13 of the fights because they choose which bears to hunt (mainly cubs but adult females close to their own weight and even old males or sub adults are occassionally taken). The eight cases where the bear initiates the fight is usually when the tiger makes a kill and the Ussuri brown bear arrives and displaces or at least tries to displace the tiger from its kill. Honestly, I still doubt a Siberian tiger can kill a healthy male Ussuri brown bear even though the tiger can put up a good fight at parity and face to face but they generally kill similar weighted brown bears (which would be female by ambush). Predators tend to compete for food more often during winter and the hungrier they get, the more aggressive they are.