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Post by dinosauria101 on Sept 26, 2019 15:02:28 GMT 5
To all, I know kodiak, he is a smart poster, but I will have a talk with him about this. But as for this topic, I did find some information from the paper "Interspecific Relations between the Amur Tiger (Panthera tigris altaica) and Brown( Ursus arctos) and Asiatic Black (Ursus thibetanus) Bears" "Collisions of bears with tigers at prey sites occur when the tiger protects its prey at the approach of a bear or when a tiger, returning to the remnants of its prey, finds the bear (Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod, 1976; Khramtsov and Zhivotchenko, 1981). The out- come of such collisions varies." "In terms of the way in which bears took hold of tiger prey, significant differences were revealed. Asiatic
black bears mostly used the prey after the tigers have
left, where brown bears took the prey away from tigers
or shared it with them (Table 2). This is, apparently, due to the fact that the Asiatic black bear avoids the tiger to a greater degree than the brown bear." "Of the 45 cases of encounters of tigers with brown bears (Kaplanov, 1948; Sysoev, 1950, 1960; Abramov, 1962; Bromley 1965; Rakov, 1970; Kucherenko, 1972; Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod, 1981; Khramtsov, 1993; our data), the tiger was the initiator in 13 cases, the bear started
eight fights, and in the other cases, the attacker was
not established. In 51.1% of cases, the fights ended with the death of the bear, in 26.7% with the death of the tiger, and in 22.2% the animals broke up." Good accounts. There is also one account where an Asiatic black bear did displace a Siberian tiger. Out of curiosity, do you know of any accounts where a black bear won a fight with a similar sized tiger? |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Sept 26, 2019 18:45:22 GMT 5
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all
Junior Member
Posts: 238
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Post by all on Oct 2, 2019 19:06:36 GMT 5
you generally don't put a tiger in a bear fight. Bear is not just lots of fat. he is mountain of muscles. with well developed pectoral muscles and great upper body strength.
Its larger and stronger than the tiger. Tigers claws will hurt the bear but they are unlikely to disable the bear. On the other hand bear can disable the tiger if he hits spine for example.
At equal weight however I favor the tiger. Because tiger can move his forelimbs in a ways bear cannot. He is also quicker and more agile.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Oct 2, 2019 20:56:18 GMT 5
Because tiger can move his forelimbs in a ways bear cannot. Why would that be? |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Oct 2, 2019 21:31:39 GMT 5
The bear is the better grappler because it has more flexible forearms.
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all
Junior Member
Posts: 238
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Post by all on Oct 2, 2019 21:57:47 GMT 5
Like Green Arrow said Tigers have more flexible forearms. They can move them almost like humans can. Bears are less flexible. I don't remember exactly what type of motion cat can do that bear can't. But human can move his shoulders in an angle. Most four legged animals cannot. (actually all of them I think) Tiger's forearms and shoulders are not as maneuverable as those of humans but more so than bears'.
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Post by Infinity Blade on Oct 2, 2019 22:04:01 GMT 5
GreenArrow just said that bears have more flexible forelimbs.
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all
Junior Member
Posts: 238
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Post by all on Oct 2, 2019 22:42:44 GMT 5
Yes he did. I said the rest.
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Oct 6, 2019 3:12:14 GMT 5
The full paragraph here: Of all the morphologic features that typify bears, the front limbs and associated skeletal infrastructure are the most distinctive. They are also diagnostic of the bear life strategy (see Life strategy). No other terrestrial vertebrate of its size--certainly no other large carnivore--has front limbs that are as flexible, powerfully built, and mounted with such dexterous paws. Nor do any comparable-sized carnivores have such out-sized claws...claws which are clearly "designed" to be powered by the muscular arms and shoulders to either climb trees, extract food from a durable matrix (i.e., dig), or grapple with and subdue large prey such as seals, moose, and elk. What follows is a summary of the evidence produced over the years elaborating on and substantiating the preceding thumbnail sketch. You will have to forgive me for the abundance that follows, but it is reflective of the extent to which I see this aspect of bear morphology as key to understanding the overall bear life strategy--as well as niche. This is the forepaw dexterity chart. (dexterity-Skill in performing tasks with the forepaws)  www.allgrizzly.org/front-limbsCredited to Kodiak |
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tijkil
Junior Member Rank 1
Posts: 58
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Post by tijkil on Oct 13, 2019 6:09:46 GMT 5
To all, I know kodiak, he is a smart poster, but I will have a talk with him about this. But as for this topic, I did find some information from the paper "Interspecific Relations between the Amur Tiger (Panthera tigris altaica) and Brown( Ursus arctos) and Asiatic Black (Ursus thibetanus) Bears" "Collisions of bears with tigers at prey sites occur when the tiger protects its prey at the approach of a bear or when a tiger, returning to the remnants of its prey, finds the bear (Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod, 1976; Khramtsov and Zhivotchenko, 1981). The out- come of such collisions varies." "In terms of the way in which bears took hold of tiger prey, significant differences were revealed. Asiatic black bears mostly used the prey after the tigers have left, where brown bears took the prey away from tigers or shared it with them (Table 2). This is, apparently, due to the fact that the Asiatic black bear avoids the tiger to a greater degree than the brown bear." "Of the 45 cases of encounters of tigers with brown bears (Kaplanov, 1948; Sysoev, 1950, 1960; Abramov, 1962; Bromley 1965; Rakov, 1970; Kucherenko, 1972; Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod, 1981; Khramtsov, 1993; our data), the tiger was the initiator in 13 cases, the bear started eight fights, and in the other cases, the attacker was not established. In 51.1% of cases, the fights ended with the death of the bear, in 26.7% with the death of the tiger, and in 22.2% the animals broke up."
How intelligent is he?
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smedz
Junior Member
Posts: 195 
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Post by smedz on Oct 13, 2019 8:23:24 GMT 5
Of course, he said something like that. Thanks for showing me this.
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smedz
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by smedz on Oct 27, 2019 5:46:28 GMT 5
I have a theory on why tigers won most of the 45 collisions with bears. You can be the judge on if this makes sense or not. I believe the answer is the prey base. In the Russian Far East, tigers will eat anything from a raccoon dog to a moose. However, prey animals in this region are naturally scarce unlike in India where prey is abundant.  With prey being more scarce, they have to travel longer distances than in India and therefore, have bigger territories. Let's have a look at the three situations of an interactions between a tiger and a brown bear. 1. Tigress with cubs This may not be related to hunting at times, but under a certain circumstance where a bear tried to eat a cub, a tigress will attack it to defend her offspring out of maternal instinct. And she will be successful sometimes, to many this would seem a bit off, as a tigress is severely outweighed by a bear. However, mother mountain lions are known to attack bears that get too close to their cubs, they may not always be successful, but they do what they can to keep their cubs safe. So I don't think we can dismiss the possibility of a tigress attacking a bear out of maternal instinct. 2. Ambush Hunt Like GreenArrow said, a tiger chooses which bears to hunt, and these bears are subadults and adult females. A sow, even though smaller than a boar, isn't an easy target. And indeed, a tiger will try to avoid injury when it can. But once again, tiger in this region travel longer distances to find prey, and so in their minds, they probably don't know when the next time they'll find food will be, so when they attack a sow, there will be times when a hunt turns into a fight. And with the mentality of the possibility of going even longer in a place with a low prey base, they fight the bear, and at times, they're successful. 3. Fights over a Carcass When a tiger does make a kill, there is the chance that a brown bear will take it away from it. If the tiger is to accept a bear as a regular thief, then it's going to have to travel long distances more often, and use more energy. But if it manages to make the bear think twice, then it won't have to deal with that problem. Many will argue that a kill is not something worth fighting over, and in many cases this is true. But if the prey is scarce, predators will become more aggressive to one another, especially the larger ones as research on amur tiger-wolf relations show us. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Oct 27, 2019 7:16:49 GMT 5
Tigers dominate most kill-disputes and fights against Brown bears, which is confirmed by statistics documented by Russian authorities/biologists.
There is not a single, and I repeat....not a single fight statistic recorded by experts, where Brown bears won more fights against tigers than vice versa. Some fight statistics showed that the tiger completely dominated the Brown bear in fights.
There's a very good reason why the native Russian people, who have lived alongside tigers and bears for thousands of years, widely regard the Amur tiger to be the undisputed LORD and master of the Ussuri taiga.
I challenge Kodiak, and any Bearfan out there, to post just one single fight statistic from the wild, which favoured the Brown bear over the tiger??
Tomorrow, when I have time, I will post all the fight statistics, recorded by Russian authorities/experts - which will clearly show and confirm the tigers blatant supremacy and dominance over the Brown bear in head-on fights to the death. Even a video, where a Russian biologist outright states that as a rule, the tiger will defeat a Brown bear in a fight.
Stay tuned.
P.S - You guys need to understand, Kodiak is an extreme tiger-hater and basher, who hates tigers with an extreme passion. He even wishes that they go extinct and said that he will celebrate the day if they ever do. I can show you guys his posts if you want?
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kodiak
Junior Member Rank 1
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Post by kodiak on Oct 28, 2019 6:32:25 GMT 5
And you people need to understand that Mr Mountain Lord here is probably the most biased tiger fan in this debate, that he has been banned from many forums for posting "OUTRIGHT MISINFORMATION" as Peter said when he banned him from Wildfact, and that not even TIGER fans agree with this guy. What does all this tell you guys?
Ok so lets start:
"Tomorrow, when I have time, I will post all the fight statistics, recorded by Russian authorities/experts - which will clearly show and confirm the tigers blatant supremacy and dominance over the Brown bear in head-on fights to the death"
They dont have to wait bro, i will post it for you, lmao. Here are your "statistics"
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalinfoforum/siberian-tiger-vs-brown-bear-fight-statistics-the--t110.html
So right after you posted this, PAUL COOPER. Who is one of the most famous and smarter TIGER fans on the internet, who argues day and night in favour of tigers said this: now what does this tell you kid? That not even TIGER fans give a F*** about anything you say or post, difference is, unlike you, tiger fans like Cooper or Peter are smart, while you are just a little tiger fangirl. here look people, hahaha
PAUL COOPER
Didnt you already post this?? You just cherry pick what favors your own preconceived ideas. You already know there is a lot of other info in the bear vs tiger debate. Bears are very large animals, larger than tigers, and its common sense that they will win in a fight, its not even a fair fight because of the way bears are built and are robust and are larger. Its just common sense, tigers are my favorite animal, i dont even care about bear vs tiger, its like tiger vs elephant, who cares its not a fair comparison and proves nothing.
This is not like lion vs tiger. If bears and tigers were the same size usually then that is debatable.
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalinfoforum/siberian-tiger-vs-brown-bear-fight-statistics-the--t110.html#p1143
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kodiak
Junior Member Rank 1
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Post by kodiak on Oct 28, 2019 6:53:50 GMT 5
So lets continue.
"I challenge Kodiak, and any Bearfan out there, to post just one single fight statistic from the wild, which favoured the Brown bear over the tiger??"
I myself have never once said that bears have won more in the wild nor have i ever seen anyone else said it. Tigers are the hunters, bears are omnivores did you know that?? Why the f....should a bear go after a tiger? Of course tigers have killed more bears than the other way around, its obvious, but even with all that, there are still 12 tigers killed and eaten in the wild, including 2 young adult males. Also, what you fail to understand is that those 22 bears killed were mostly adult male tigers vs subadult and adult female brown bears. PETER said the statistics between the MALES favour the bear. Oh and look kid, personal message from Peter at Wildfact "AUTHORITIES AGREE THAT THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION (200 KG AND OVER) IS DOMINATED BY ADULT MALE BROWN BEARS" not Peter's opinion, the AUTHORITIES. So who in this world is gona believe you over Peter? NOBODY. you lost and the debate is over as even the smartest TIGER fans admit that brown bears with a weight advantage will win more. Simple.
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