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Post by brobear on Nov 7, 2019 19:42:47 GMT 5
Concerning post #53: 1 - SYSOEV
Sysoev is one of the very few who saw a number of fights between adult tigers and adult brown bears. In one case, the fight ended undecided. In another, a male tiger killed an adult female and in two others the male tigers were defeated. At least one of the two male tigers was killed. Many think this incident happened in 1960. Sysoev later wrote a story about an encounter between a male tiger and a male bear called 'Amba'. Although the story probably is fictional, chances are he used things he actually saw. I'll post the story in some time. For now, I'll try to paint the picture that emerged from the story.
Sysoev wrote about the life of a male tiger in eastern Russia. I'm not sure, but I think the tiger was a youngish adult. He wrote how the tiger hunted, killed and ate a wolf. Later, he killed a male Himalayan black bear. In winter, the tiger had to walk long distances to find the animals he preferred most (deer and wild boars). Some of the animals he killed were confiscated by a large male brown bear. The bear was so large, the tiger wouldn't have had a chance in a fight. He had no option but to accept it. But when another, slightly smaller, male tried to rob him of a wild boar he had killed, the tiger decided to defend his kill.
The bear was a large male, but weightwise below par as a result of a lack of food. Maybe the bear was a 'Schatun' and maybe it was just after hibernation. I don't remember. Anyhow. The tiger first threatened the bear, who wasn't impressed. Then a fight started. In the first stages, the tiger was able to get behind the bear. Every time he succeeded, the neck was targeted. In spite of the severe wounds he inflicted, he couldn't get to the vertebrae because the bear was able to get out of the grip of the tiger using his weight.
After some time, the tiger tired and the bear got his chance. Although he crushed the front paw of the bear, the tiger wasn't able to break the hold of the bear. He died as a result of suffocation. Wild Amur tigers killed by wild Ussuri bears, as far as I know, seldom perish as a result of a crushing blow or crushed ribs. Most are strangled, which means the bear in question had to be a strong animal. Chances are it was a male in most cases. This is one reason why I don't buy the general view on no engagements between male tigers and male bears, but that's another story.
When Sysoev was director of the Chabarowsk Natural History Museum, a diorama was constructed. It shows a male brown bear and a male Amur tiger engaged in battle.
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Post by brobear on Nov 7, 2019 19:45:58 GMT 5
Post #55: I never said tigers do not kill sloth bears. I said only in ambush. Never face-to-face.  Why did I say "if legit"? Because big cat fan-boys have the internet saturated by fake-facts. |
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mountainlord
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Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 7, 2019 19:46:24 GMT 5
Concerning post #53: 1 - SYSOEV Sysoev is one of the very few who saw a number of fights between adult tigers and adult brown bears. In one case, the fight ended undecided. In another, a male tiger killed an adult female and in two others the male tigers were defeated. At least one of the two male tigers was killed. Many think this incident happened in 1960. Sysoev later wrote a story about an encounter between a male tiger and a male bear called 'Amba'. Although the story probably is fictional, chances are he used things he actually saw. I'll post the story in some time. For now, I'll try to paint the picture that emerged from the story. Sysoev wrote about the life of a male tiger in eastern Russia. I'm not sure, but I think the tiger was a youngish adult. He wrote how the tiger hunted, killed and ate a wolf. Later, he killed a male Himalayan black bear. In winter, the tiger had to walk long distances to find the animals he preferred most (deer and wild boars). Some of the animals he killed were confiscated by a large male brown bear. The bear was so large, the tiger wouldn't have had a chance in a fight. He had no option but to accept it. But when another, slightly smaller, male tried to rob him of a wild boar he had killed, the tiger decided to defend his kill. The bear was a large male, but weightwise below par as a result of a lack of food. Maybe the bear was a 'Schatun' and maybe it was just after hibernation. I don't remember. Anyhow. The tiger first threatened the bear, who wasn't impressed. Then a fight started. In the first stages, the tiger was able to get behind the bear. Every time he succeeded, the neck was targeted. In spite of the severe wounds he inflicted, he couldn't get to the vertebrae because the bear was able to get out of the grip of the tiger using his weight. After some time, the tiger tired and the bear got his chance. Although he crushed the front paw of the bear, the tiger wasn't able to break the hold of the bear. He died as a result of suffocation. Wild Amur tigers killed by wild Ussuri bears, as far as I know, seldom perish as a result of a crushing blow or crushed ribs. Most are strangled, which means the bear in question had to be a strong animal. Chances are it was a male in most cases. This is one reason why I don't buy the general view on no engagements between male tigers and male bears, but that's another story. When Sysoev was director of the Chabarowsk Natural History Museum, a diorama was constructed. It shows a male brown bear and a male Amur tiger engaged in battle. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 7, 2019 19:48:54 GMT 5
Post #55: I never said tigers do not kill sloth bears. I said only in ambush. Never face-to-face. Why did I say "if legit"? Because big cat fan-boys have the internet saturated by fake-facts.
And tigers have killed Sloth bears in face-to-face fights, just like how tigers have killed MANY Brown bears in face-to-face fights too. |
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Post by brobear on Nov 7, 2019 19:54:49 GMT 5
You are ranting. I have yet to see on video a tiger going head-to-head voluntarily ( not a cage fight ) with any species of bear - ever. And that "source" you gave is witten in Russian. A no-go. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 7, 2019 20:12:36 GMT 5
You are ranting. I have yet to see on video a tiger going head-to-head voluntarily ( not a cage fight ) with any species of bear - ever. And that "source" you gave is witten in Russian. A no-go.
You just can't handle the fact that I showed you a CONFIRMED account from 100% scientific literature, of a tiger that hunted down and slaughtered a male Brown bear. Deal with it.
Here again, a 100% legit scientific article/study from the worlds top leading scientific website:
www.researchgate.net/publication/278966334_Search_of_Prey_and_Tactic_of_hunting_of_the_amur_Tiger_Panthera_tigris_altaica
All you have is petty excuses, excuses and more excuses. |
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Post by brobear on Nov 7, 2019 20:24:42 GMT 5
Again; I am having this checked out. When something is discovered that has never been known to happen before, one does not rush in rashly. If this is real; then it is indeed a first and if so, I will accept it. ( accepting the truth - a new concept for a big cat fan-boy ). By the way; there are numerous "legitimate looking" fake sites made by big cat fan-boys. Most of you are true computer nerds. I lack the computer skills to translate. I'm not a geek. |
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Post by brobear on Nov 7, 2019 20:41:57 GMT 5
Here we go:
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Post by Life on Nov 7, 2019 22:44:30 GMT 5
Tiger versus Sloth bear = mixed outcomes* * I have already posted a well-documented account in which a Sloth bear (adult female) was able to hold her own in a fight with an adult Tiger (male?) and drive it away.Now, do you realize that Sloth bears are really small in comparison to the largest of bears in existence? For reference:-  Polar and Grizzly tend to grow much larger than other bears on average. These two bears grow bigger [and stronger] than even male tigers on average - this is what I was alluding to. This isn't to say that a tiger cannot kill a bear larger than itself - it can/could/have (I have checked your links), but predators are known to take on the sick and young of other animals on average (culling strategy). Tigers are rather elusive predators, therefore, accounts of their kills are expected to be poorly documented and/or subject to narrative biases on average. In contrast; Lions challenge other animals out in the open, therefore, have a solid reputation as a big-game hunter/predator. Regarding the capacity of an adult male lion to handle/kill an animal larger than itself:Regarding Tiger versus Lion:A tiger killing 31 lions? LMAO Authentic footage of clashes between lions and tigers are accessible on the web (staged events to be precise), and these fights are normally inconclusive. My personal take; a Tiger is likely to expend lot of energy in its effort to kill an animal early on (ambush-driven predation) but if this attacking strategy does not produce a breakthrough then the tiger is likely to loose/give up (avoiding injuries). A lion is likely to wear another animal down in contrast (endurance-driven predation), and many have suffered extensive injuries in the process (not afraid to take some punishment). In short, both cat types have distinct life-styles and relevant adaptations. Based on the above, the 'wear down' capacity arguably give a male lion the necessary edge to tackle even a male tiger in a natural environment - ignoring staged events + assuming both as being healthy - this is what I was alluding to. Regarding tigers taking on elephants:You must be joking, right? Tigers are able to kill/consume elephant neonates but they stand no chance against an elephant adult unless it is really sick. A Tiger is likely to give ground when it notice an adult elephant approaching it. [1] [1] Disclosure from an Indian forest officer who posted the aforementioned video: "am an indian forest officer and in below comments many of them are commenting elephant is killed by tiger in many cases in india........many times it happend here but it is just elephant calf..only even a leopard or a pack of dogs can killa an elephant calf.........in very rare cases a juvanile elephant is got killed by a tiger.............but aginst a fully grown elephants tiger could'nt do any thing many cases here reported adult tiger seriously injured due to kick of elephant...even death also........in order to maintain the tiger population tigers even shifted from elephant prone areas to other area......."Tigers are impressive predators without any doubt but Tiger fanboys really need to dial down the hype-meter. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 7, 2019 22:45:47 GMT 5
LifeI could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the tiger killing elephant accounts are slightly twisted tales of tigers attacking but not killing domestic elephants.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 7, 2019 23:41:56 GMT 5
Again; I am having this checked out. When something is discovered that has never been known to happen before, one does not rush in rashly. If this is real; then it is indeed a first and if so, I will accept it. ( accepting the truth - a new concept for a big cat fan-boy ). By the way; there are numerous "legitimate looking" fake sites made by big cat fan-boys. Most of you are true computer nerds. I lack the computer skills to translate. I'm not a geek.
Then scroll down the article and you'll see the account of your precious male Brown bear that was hunted down and killed by a tiger. OK.
Researchgate is not just an ordinary site created by fan-boyz. LOL...You kiddin me? Its a site created by world leading experts, that have published over one million peer-reviewed scientific studies and articles. Get your facts right.
And accepting the truth is clearly a new concept to all you deluded Bear fanatics, who can't handle the fact that your "mighty" Brown bears (Including large adults) are hunted, killed and eaten by the greatest land-predator on earth - THE TIGER!
And Brobear, you still haven't addressed the fight statistics I posted of tigers dominating and whooping Brown bears in face-to-face fights.
You still can't acknowledge the FACT that you were completely wrong and exposed about Misha being Dale. And you still haven't addressed the fact that John Vaillant was told by Russian authorities/experts - that the Brown bear, despite reaching a 1000lbs in weight, is known to FLEE at the sight of a tiger.
You think I can't expose you? Your a two-faced old man. On Wildfact, your a totally different person, you even admitted that you think there's probably been hundreds of cases of tigers killing full-grown healthy male Brown bears. Now, on this forum, your like a completely different person.
Your also a blatant HYPOCRITE that has double standards for posting unreliable, old captive accounts (Even from frauds like Beatty) when you yourself have repeatedly over the years, outright criticised the validity of these accounts. But when it suits your "Bear supremacy" agenda, you post them because you barely have anything from the wild that favours the Brown bear. You sir, are a two-faced hypocrite and you know it.
The tiger is clearly the far more dominant beast. Who regularly hunts the Brown bears, and also wins most fights against them, period. And thats why the tiger is widely regarded by the Russian people as the LORD and MASTER of the taiga.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 8, 2019 0:02:25 GMT 5
Tiger versus Sloth bear = mixed outcomes* * I have already posted a well-documented account in which a Sloth bear (adult female) was able to hold her own in a fight with an adult Tiger (male?) and drive it away.Now, do you realize that Sloth bears are really small in comparison to the largest of bears in existence? For reference:- Polar and Grizzly tend to grow much larger than other bears on average. These two bears grow bigger [and stronger] than even male tigers on average - this is what I was alluding to. This isn't to say that a tiger cannot kill a bear larger than itself - it can/could/have (I have checked your links), but predators are known to take on the sick and young of other animals on average (culling strategy). Tigers are rather elusive predators, therefore, accounts of their kills are expected to be poorly documented and/or subject to narrative biases on average. In contrast; Lions challenge other animals out in the open, therefore, have a solid reputation as a big-game hunter/predator. Regarding the capacity of an adult male lion to handle/kill an animal larger than itself:Regarding Tiger versus Lion:A tiger killing 31 lions? LMAO Authentic footage of clashes between lions and tigers are accessible on the web (staged events to be precise), and these fights are normally inconclusive. My personal take; a Tiger is likely to expend lot of energy in its effort to kill an animal early on (ambush-driven predation) but if this attacking strategy does not produce a breakthrough then the tiger is likely to loose/give up (avoiding injuries). A lion is likely to wear another animal down in contrast (endurance-driven predation), and many have suffered extensive injuries in the process (not afraid to take some punishment). In short, both cat types have distinct life-styles and relevant adaptations. Based on the above, the 'wear down' capacity arguably give a male lion the necessary edge to tackle even a male tiger in a natural environment - ignoring staged events + assuming both as being healthy - this is what I was alluding to. Regarding tigers taking on elephants:You must be joking, right? Tigers are able to kill/consume elephant neonates but they stand no chance against an elephant adult unless it is really sick. A Tiger is likely to give ground when it notice an adult elephant approaching it. [1] [1] Disclosure from an Indian forest officer who posted the aforementioned video: "am an indian forest officer and in below comments many of them are commenting elephant is killed by tiger in many cases in india........many times it happend here but it is just elephant calf..only even a leopard or a pack of dogs can killa an elephant calf.........in very rare cases a juvanile elephant is got killed by a tiger.............but aginst a fully grown elephants tiger could'nt do any thing many cases here reported adult tiger seriously injured due to kick of elephant...even death also........in order to maintain the tiger population tigers even shifted from elephant prone areas to other area......."Tigers are impressive predators without any doubt but Tiger fanboys really need to dial down the hype-meter.
Your videos also proved nothing. I've seen all of them before. I never asked for accounts of single lions killing adult female buffaloes and ganging-up on bulls, I very clearly asked for a single account of a lone lion killing a full-grown adult BULL buffalo, and you failed to show me just one account.
Anyway, read through this thread. I compiled evidence, even from Craig Packer, which proves a lone lion is basically hopeless against a Bull buffalo:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalfightclub/a-lone-lion-cannot-kill-an-adult-bull-buffalo-t108.html
Tigers killing adult Elephants and Rhinos are reported by 100% credible sources, from biologists, forest officials and forest departments. That thread I posted clearly proved that and showed the accounts.
You also cherry-picked one video of a tiger backing away from an Elephant. Well, numerous studies have shown and proven that even rogue Elephant herds have an innate fear of tigers and will vacate the area if they sense a tigers presence or hear its growl.
I can also do the same....
Huge Bull tusker Elephant senses a tigers presence and flee's out of fear.
Here's a description on how a tiger kills an adult Elephant:
Also, check one of my previous posts, where I posted all the fight statistics which clearly proved that tigers are the usual winners in fights against Brown bears.
On a solitary basis, the tiger by far takes down the larger and more powerful prey. Here's a study showing that buffalo made up LESS THAN 1% of the solitary male lions diet:
www.sanparks.org/assets/docs/conservation/scientific_new/savanna/ssnm2015/lion-hunting-and-vegetation-structure.pdf
It also shows that even lions prefer to ambush prey using dense vegetation.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 8, 2019 0:07:38 GMT 5
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 8, 2019 0:10:53 GMT 5
Here we go:
There's also a recent confirmed account from biologists, of a man that killed a 400lb Grizzly bear with his bare hands! No man in his dreams could ever do that to a tiger.
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Post by Life on Nov 8, 2019 0:11:47 GMT 5
mountainlordI am in the profession of academics and I would tell you that books aren't 100% accurate or free of narrative bias on average. Many books are not peer-reviewed, and 'narrative accounts' are to be treated with "caution."
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