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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 22, 2019 15:01:01 GMT 5
There are accounts of tigers and lions killing sick captive polar bears but these bears were relatively small before the issue of animal rights. Despite that polar bears are still not suitable for zoos and captivity:  Although this polar bear is one of the largest (that is not in the wild but in captivity). Polar bears don't grow that big in captivity during that time because during the time this newspaper was made. This is not only because the polar bears were out of their natural environment but they were also poorly kept as the Animal Rights Welfare did not exist at that time. Polar bears in captivity today are bigger because they are better kept due to the Animal Rights Welfare and because some are taken out directly from the wild.  'Everyone of the big cats tried to spring onto the two intruders, and two of the tigers whose lassos were not tight enough got their claws into one of the bears'. The sentence underlined was what I was referring to (a sick captive polar bear being taken down by two tigers, the other captive polar bear ran to the back of the cage). A wild polar bear or even a large male captive polar bear (fresh out of the wild) would beat any tiger.
Two tigers taking down one sick polar bear is not fair.  In the 19th century zoos, and early 20th century, bears were not fed much meat ( cost ). Therefore there were some very small polar bears.  Don't forget that captive polar bears of the 1800's and early 1900's were down-sized.  This polar bear died not just because of blood lost but because of the heat stress it suffers outside its natural environment. Yet the polar bear still managed to mortally wound the tiger. If the polar bear had been wild and healthy, it would have killed the tiger without dying itself.  Still lions and tigers still give these large polar bears plenty of room. It seems captive large polar bears are able to instill fear in tigers and lions.  Captive polar bears seldom surpass 1000 pounds.    These large captive polar bearw will beat any tiger or lion. Polar bears in circuses are healthier now due to Animal Rights Welfare or if taken straight out of the wild. Captive animals fear mankind less than wild animals do. In other words, captive polar bears are less shy around humans. Given the yellowish white colour of the polar bears (they are older bears due to sun oxidation).  Although captive cats have loss some of their wits yet they can be healthier and larger than their wild counterparts. A healthy polar bear would beat any healthy tiger or lion. |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 22, 2019 15:18:07 GMT 5
Tiger 400 lbs vs brown bear 400 lbs?
Slight Weight advantage
Tiger 400 lbs vs brown bear 500 lbs?
Tiger 400 lbs vs brown bear 600 lbs?
Tiger 500 lbs vs brown bear 800 lbs?
Double the weight
Tiger 500 lbs vs brown bear 1000+ lbs?
Triple the weight
Tiger 500 lbs vs brown bear 1500 lbs?
Tiger 400 lbs vs brown bear 400 lbs? Brown bears wins 5 - 6/ 10 times. 50/50 If the brown bear is female and at weight parity with the tiger. Slight Weight advantage Tiger 400 lbs vs brown bear 500 lbs? Bear wins 6-7/10 times. Tiger 400 lbs vs brown bear 600 lbs? Bear wins 7-8/10 times Tiger 500 lbs vs brown bear 800 lbs? Brown bear wins 8- 9/10 times. Double the weight Tiger 500 lbs vs brown bear 1000+ lbs? Brown bear wins 9.5 - 10/10 times Triple the weight Tiger 500 lbs vs brown bear 1500 lbs? Brown bears wins 10/10 times. Everybody else is free to state their opinions. |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 22, 2019 16:15:44 GMT 5
mountainlord I am in the profession of academics and I would tell you that books aren't 100% accurate or free of narrative bias on average. Many books are not peer-reviewed, and 'narrative accounts' are to be treated with "caution."   Life, may I know your opinion on this please? |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 22, 2019 17:59:03 GMT 5
 Russian biologist Vsevolod Sysoev stating that brown bears enter into battles with tigers and became winners. He also calls them "landlords" of the forests. The link is in green. |
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mountainlord
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Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 22, 2019 18:43:31 GMT 5
GreenArrow
Are you that desperate that you have to resort to spamming IRRELEVANT and unreliable accounts on this thread? Seriously, this is a joke! This topic is about the BROWN BEAR VS AMUR TIGER, not about tigers vs Polar bears, sloth bears or other animals.
For the last time, the John Vaillant book is a 100% FACTUAL book based on true events that happened in 1997. Even biologists like Dale Miquelle read his book and said it was great and very informative. I already proved this on the "Bengal tiger vs Grizzly bear" thread. Even a documentary was made referring to the case in Vaillants book. So why are you spamming the same shit for?....I posted more than enough proof, even an interview from Vaillant, and that still wasn't enough for you.
FYI, "some" Polar bears get sick and small in captivity, not all bears. Many Polar bears reach huge sizes, even up to 500 kg in captivity. You deliberately cherry-pick old photos showing small Polar bears, but what about all the other photo's showing massive Polar bears in captivity? Lol, funny...you leave that out.
Do these captive Polar bears look "small" or "sick" to you?....
Some more huge circus Polar bears:
Some Polar bears reach enormous sizes and weights in captivity. And the account I posted clearly stated that the tiger had killed one of the LARGEST Polar bears in captivity. How can a sick Polar bear be one of the "largest" bears in captivity?? Sick animals look weak, frail and small. But the tiger destroyed one of the largest bears in captivity. Confirming the Polar bear was massive and healthy, fact.
Also, if Polar bears get sick and demented in captivity, then how comes there's numerous cases of Polar bears killing male lions in captivity, but not a single case of a Polar bear ever killing or defeating a tiger in a fight?
All you've done so far is continuously spam irrelevant accounts and the same old stuff from Kodiak. Why can't you debate this subject properly like a man, instead of ignoring many of my questions and accounts and just spamming Kodiak's sources??
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 22, 2019 18:50:19 GMT 5
Russian biologist Vsevolod Sysoev stating that brown bears enter into battles with tigers and became winners. He also calls them "landlords" of the forests. The link is in green.
Did he say that bears win more fights? NO.
Even I've never denied that a Brown bear can win a fight against a tiger. The Brown bear is also another large formidable animal. But the important thing is, is that who's the USUAL WINNER in a fight between the two, and all the evidence, fight statistics and testimonies from majority of Russian authorities confirm that the tiger is the usual winner in a fight between these two beasts, period.
I even posted a video, where a Russian biologist states that, AS A RULE, the tiger wins! What more proof do you need now? Your clearly getting desperate and thats why your spamming irrelevant accounts and old, unreliable sources.
And take a look at Sysoev's taxidermy he had constructed which depicts a fight between a male tiger and male Brown bear. It clearly looks like, overall, he favoured the tiger in a fight. The tiger is clearly in the dominant position:
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Post by 6f5e4d on Nov 22, 2019 18:55:53 GMT 5
Back on topic, I vote for the Ussuri brown bear defeating the Siberian tiger. Of course, the bear is usually larger than the tiger anyway and will often have a bigger weight advantage because of that, in tandem with strong swipes from its paws.
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Post by Life on Nov 22, 2019 22:10:04 GMT 5
mountainlord I am in the profession of academics and I would tell you that books aren't 100% accurate or free of narrative bias on average. Many books are not peer-reviewed, and 'narrative accounts' are to be treated with "caution." Life, may I know your opinion on this please? Works of fiction are not valid sources. |
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smedz
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Post by smedz on Nov 23, 2019 18:21:16 GMT 5
About John Vaillant's book.  |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 24, 2019 2:34:23 GMT 5
GreenArrow
Are you that desperate that you have to resort to spamming IRRELEVANT and unreliable accounts on this thread? Seriously, this is a joke! This topic is about the BROWN BEAR VS AMUR TIGER, not about tigers vs Polar bears, sloth bears or other animals.
For the last time, the John Vaillant book is a 100% FACTUAL book based on true events that happened in 1997. Even biologists like Dale Miquelle read his book and said it was great and very informative. I already proved this on the "Bengal tiger vs Grizzly bear" thread. Even a documentary was made referring to the case in Vaillants book. So why are you spamming the same shit for?....I posted more than enough proof, even an interview from Vaillant, and that still wasn't enough for you.
FYI, "some" Polar bears get sick and small in captivity, not all bears. Many Polar bears reach huge sizes, even up to 500 kg in captivity. You deliberately cherry-pick old photos showing small Polar bears, but what about all the other photo's showing massive Polar bears in captivity? Lol, funny...you leave that out.
Do these captive Polar bears look "small" or "sick" to you?....
Some more huge circus Polar bears:
Some Polar bears reach enormous sizes and weights in captivity. And the account I posted clearly stated that the tiger had killed one of the LARGEST Polar bears in captivity. How can a sick Polar bear be one of the "largest" bears in captivity?? Sick animals look weak, frail and small. But the tiger destroyed one of the largest bears in captivity. Confirming the Polar bear was massive and healthy, fact.
Also, if Polar bears get sick and demented in captivity, then how comes there's numerous cases of Polar bears killing male lions in captivity, but not a single case of a Polar bear ever killing or defeating a tiger in a fight?
All you've done so far is continuously spam irrelevant accounts and the same old stuff from Kodiak. Why can't you debate this subject properly like a man, instead of ignoring many of my questions and accounts and just spamming Kodiak's sources?? Circus animals have the right to be protected and treated humanely under the Animal Welfare Act. www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-circus-animal-abuse. Animal Welfare Act
The Animal Welfare Act was signed into law in 1966. It is the only Federal law in the United States that regulates the treatment of animals in research, exhibition, transport, and by dealers. Other laws, policies, and guidelines may include additional species coverage or specifications for animal care and use, but all refer to the Animal Welfare Act as the minimum acceptable standard. The Act is enforced by USDA, APHIS, Animal Care. www.nal.usda.gov/awic/animal-welfare-actThere are some large polar bears in the circus. However, a polar bear is one of the most poorly adapted animals to environment and temperature change. These circus polar bears will beat any tiger or lion and due to animal rights are definitely healthier than the captive polar bears in the 18th century.  This same female polar bear killed two lions:  Other polar bears have had time in the limelight. ... And there was Velox, a massive female polar bear, who in 1941 retired at the Denver Zoo after nine years of touring ... was said she had killed two African lions during her time at the circus. books.google.com.au/books?id=ykf3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA24&dq=female+polar+bear+velox++kills+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjiufogILmAhWRfysKHfj7BRsQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=female%20polar%20bear%20velox%20%20kills%20lion&f=falseVelox--The Polar bear that killed two lions Denver Zoo Via Ringling Bros. Circus  circusnospin.blogspot.com/2012/05/velox-polar-bear-that-killed-two-lions.html?m=1Captive polar bears before the estabishment of Animal Rights probably look like: ![]()   Plus: In an ideal world there would be no polar bears in zoos, for if ever there is an animal that doesn’t belong in a zoo it’s the polar bear.
www.bearconservation.org.uk/polar-bears-in-zoos/I am intrigued by the notion that there is a film of a puma chasing off a Grizzly bear. One program that used to air in Detroit ('Realm of the Wild'), showed a fight between a puma and black bear defending her cubs with the bear having the edge. I also remember coming across reference to a 400lb tiger succumbing in battle with a Polar bear which presumably was much bigger but came out severely mauled. My sense from what I have read is that pound-for-pound, the big cats have a definite edge over bears though what we're dealing with is a 'win some, lose some' situation. Virtually all other carnivores be they dogs, bears, weasals, civets, whatever, fall prey to cats as do non-carnivorous animals. The one family that gives stiff competition are the weasals, especially the Wolverine. However, apparently there is as much if not more myth about this animal's prowess as fact. Finally, as more information comes in, it would be interesting to see if there are any updates or revisions to your "ultimate carnivore" projections.--Francis Kornegay www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict14.htmlWe might have one account of a captive polar bear beating a captive tiger. Big Bons said that there is an account of a polar bear actually killing a tiger but died soon after not due to its wounds but because of overheating.  "When accidents happen, when strange animals are placed together and a fight starts, always try to protect the weaker animal, regardless of his species. You will hear it said that a tiger can kill a lion, or vice versa. In my experience i have seen all theories exploded. Tigers have killed lions, lions have killed polar bears, a small leopard has killed a large tiger. usually a polar bear can kill any of the big cats, but i have seen a lion kill a polar bear", Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, page 204-205.
This account above is referring to captive polar bears  . Even healthy captive polar bears overheat quickly outside their natural environment:  While polar bears overheat in their natural environment, they last much longer in their natural environment and males are able to fight each other to death during mating season.   shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/798/historical-accounts-bears-big-interactions?page=3 (Link from a now dead forum). Even a captive polar bear is able to give a captive lion slightly lighter than itself a hard time before losing. Imagine what full size polar bear can do. One more: Unlike the brown bear, polar bears in captivity are rarely overweight or particularly large, possibly as a reaction to the warm conditions of most zoos.
www.projectnoah.org/spottings/11801217 |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 24, 2019 2:45:21 GMT 5
About John Vaillant's book. Good job Smedz . However Dale Miquelle also stated: All I can say is, the Amur can be highly ferocious, and i would consider it more than unsafe to assume otherwise. In regard strengths (relative) The bigcats have reduced collarbones when compared to Ungulates and Bears, which increases flexibility and speed, while compromising ultimate strength potential, however, the Amur is least lacking, among Pantherines, in this department. Finally, the Amur should attain the greatest weight potentials under Bergmans rule but is now Challenged by the movement of Tigers into higher elevations due to the influence of man. Here we might get other Pantherine species facing similar increases in body size. I hope this is of some help. Credited to Ursus Artos (from Carnivora) - he no longer posts. A brown bear might be stronger than the tiger at weight parity but the striped cat has advantages of its own to put up a good fight. A brown bear with more flexible forearms can defend itself from a tiger better than a bovid can (once the tiger passes the defense of a bovine and grabs its throat, there is little the bovine can do). Regarding tiger vs all bears: - Polar bear vs Tiger: Polar bear beats tiger 10/10 as the yellowish white bear is just too big.
- Brown bear vs Tiger: A big male brown bear can beat a tiger, however, a tiger can put at a good fight a parity.
- Black bear vs Tiger: The tiger will beat most black bears (both American and Asiatic black bears) except exceptionally large American black bear males.
- Sloth bear vs Tiger: The tiger will beat the sloth bear in a fight to death. There are records of tigers killing sloth bears but not vice versa (although the sloth bear does manage to defend itself).
- Spectacled bear vs Tiger: Mismatch in favour of tiger.
- Giant panda vs Tiger: Mismatch in favour of tiger.
- Sun bear vs Tiger: Mismatch in favour of tiger, Tiger will win in a fight to death.
I think Dale Miquelle wrote this too: The outcome of the relationship between tigers and bears is not so clear. These species developed the ability to coexist in the Shikhote-Alin ecosystem. Himalayan bear competition with its larger cousin, brown bear, as well as with tiger, but his excellent ability to climb trees gives him the necessary paths salvation, which allows the coexistence of these predators. Direct collisions between brown bear and tigers end differently and the result of such a collision depends on many factors. However, it is clear that brown bears reap greater benefit from the presence of tigers because tigers killed animals - a source of protein food for bears. Therefore, not surprisingly, bears commonly use this source, even if it requires a direct clash with the Tigers. Tigers, it seems unable to prevent adult male brown bears away from their food. www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalsversesanimals/brown-bear-predation-of-amur-tiger-1973-account-t1960.html#p33390The link is from a now dead forum so hopefully the mods won't mind me posting this. |
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Post by DonaldCengXiongAzuma on Nov 24, 2019 10:49:08 GMT 5
Sloth bears: In India, the rather shaggy sloth bear has been known to steal tiger kills, though it's to be admitted that the Bengal tiger usually comes off the winner in these challenges. Brown and Asiatic black bears: The Amur tiger shares the forest with a powerful neighbor: the brown bear. A close relative of the Alaskan grizzly, the brown bear lacks the ferocity of its cousin, but can grow larger, with big males regularly reaching 1500 lb. A second species of bear, the smaller Asiatic black bear, also lives in the same location. These weigh in at up to 350 lb and often seem small from a distance. In fact, that statement is true of all bears. The small appearance comes from the fact that bears are round-bodied and long-slung. Couple this with short thick legs, in relation to body size, and you have that look of a small compact animal. But that same bear will tower over a man when he rises onto his hind legs. Incidentally, many people think bears are short-sighted, but this is not correct; experiments have shown bears have keen eyesight along with excellent hearing and smell. There is a great deal of interaction between the brown bear and the Amur tiger. Tigers and bears are born enemies. Whenever possible a tiger will drive away a bear, or try to kill and eat it. A male tiger will even attack a female brown bear with young. Animal biologists once spotted a big male on a freshly killed brown bear cub. The mother bear and her second cub had escaped by climbing a tree.
The killing of male brown bears is very rare. In such cases the tiger usually takes the bear by surprise during hibernation. These two opponents are very wary of a fight. A fully grown, male brown bear, weighing up to 1500 lb, presents a formidable foe to even the biggest male Amur tiger. Large brown bears even follow tigers and will take over their kills; especially at the end of winter when there is little food around. www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict9.htmlTiger predation on bears: Tigers generally avoid bears much over 800 lb, but will quite readily predate on sub-600 lb females. This is impressive predation and during fights with the brown bear the tiger gives quite a good account of itself.
Occasional confrontations with similar weight animals over a kill usually fizzle out after a bit of noise and threatening display. Huge grizzly bears: However, the 1000 lb plus bear is king here and of a much more ferocious disposition. Two large male tigers were found killed by such animals in the year 2000, which is tragic, if natures way. Tigers will usually avoid such a powerful foe, but eventually these huge animals will run into each other. Often the bear is trying to steal the tiger's kill. The tiger gives a better account of itself in a bear fight than the lion. The bear does not go in for strangulation or nape biting, but uses his paws to rain blows to the head and shoulders. Possibly this removes any advantage of a mane. With no experience of bear fighting, a lion would probably be found wanting against such a foe, yet it appears to have great advantage against creatures which go in for blood letting at the throat (such as the tiger). www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict10.html
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 25, 2019 0:28:04 GMT 5
GreenArrow
There you go, now you know that the John Vaillant book is based on FACTS, not fiction, confirmed by Dale Miquelle. Even though I easily proved it before to you. And now you know that Vaillant was told by the actual experts that 1000lb Brown bears are known to flee at the sight of a tiger. And that tigers attack and kill bears on a regular basis, which is confirmed by scientific studies/data.
You still couldn't post a single account of a Polar bear defeating a tiger in a fight. In every single recorded instance of a Polar bear fighting a tiger, the tiger won in every single case. That says it all.
Then you posted made-up rubbish from "Lairweb". That website was created by lion fanatics years ago. Its full of lies and no evidence is posted on that site, at all. Its full of made-up shit and claims, with no shred of evidence or links to support those statements. So please, if you wanna be taken seriously, don't post made-up nonsense from a lion fanatic fan-made website. The site is FAKE.
You posted this statement from Dale Miquelle, which was originally posted by the Bearfan "Grahhh" on the old AVA site.
Well, "Grahhh" exposing himself for the deceitful Bear fanatic that he is, deliberately left out this part which Miquelle states right after saying that....
"However some tigers have learned to hunt bears, and therefore not all brown bears win in clashes with tigers."
You see, the CONTEXT is important. Miquelle clearly indicates that not all adult male Brown bears are "victorious" against tigers, because in some cases the tigers kill them and thats one of the ways they learnt to hunt bears!
"Grahhh" deliberately left out that part to make it look like that adult male brown bears just "dominate" in kill-disputes, which is lies. Especially considering the fact that every single fight statistic which records direct clashes between tigers and Brown bears over kill-disputes, shows that the tiger wins most of the fights. Its the tiger that dominates fights over kill-disputes. Confirmed by statistics documented by undisputed Russian authorities and biologists.
This is a completely made-up and FAKE account by Lairweb. There's never been a single source ever found reporting this lie, nor has any biologist in history ever mentioned this nonsense. Again, just made-up written words from a fake website with not a shred of evidence provided.
And again your posting completely irrelevant accounts of sloth bear interactions with tigers. Why? This thread is about tigers vs BROWN BEARS, not tigers vs other bear sub-species. Whats the point in all of this? You look desperate.
Everyone knows that in a serious fight, no sloth bear or Black bear stands a chance against a tiger, period. Its a mismatch. The tiger slaughters all of them.
Polar bear vs Tiger: Tiger kills the bear 7/10, as the tiger is a specialist in killing large powerful animals, including large bears.
Brown bear vs Tiger: Tiger is the general winner, because fight statistics, as well as testimonies from Russian authorities/biologists etc...confirm this.
Black bear vs Tiger: Tiger wins all day, 10/10 even against exceptionally large males, as the tiger is physically far superior and far more capable.
Sloth bear vs Tiger: Its a total mismatch. In a fight to the death, the bear, no matter what size, will always end up becoming the lunch or dinner of the tiger.
Spectacled bear vs Tiger: I 100% agree with you. Its a complete mismatch.
Giant Panda vs Tiger: Again I totally agree with you!
Sun bear vs Tiger: I totally agree with you again.
Now, no matter which way you wanna look at it, tigers in the wild have clearly proven to be the USUAL winners in fights against Brown bears. And in some statistics, they completely dominated the Brown bear in fights over kills. I already posted all the evidence which proves this. You simply can't deny it.
Life
You claim that your a "Book academic". So how comes you didn't know that Vaillants book was NOT fiction??
I also easily proved this on the Bengal tiger vs Grizzly bear thread. And now, thanks to smedz, he got further confirmation from Dale Miquelle confirming it:
Vaillant even states this in the opening chapter of his book:
"This is a book about Russians and their tigers, and much of the information in it comes from Russian sources, including many interviews."
books.google.co.uk/books?id=WGvVohmSYXcC&pg=PT305&lpg=PT305&dq=dale+miquelle+on+john+vaillants+book&source=bl&ots=mHvGgqTB-d&sig=CaRAJvAaHADHkFi96um7djScTBQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip5_jywdvcAhUDCxoKHdmsARAQ6AEINDAC#v=onepage&q=dale%20miquelle%20on%20john%20vaillants%20book&f=false
No offence, but to be honest, I don't believe your a book academic.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Nov 25, 2019 0:39:20 GMT 5
GreenArrowOne last thing, when Brown bears challenge tigers for their kills, in vast majority of these cases, these incidents consist of large male Brown bears that challenge much smaller female tigers, not adult male tigers. Even the largest Brown bears, strictly AVOID adult male tigers in fear of what could happen to them.This fact is well known and scientific studies have proven this. In fact, in most of the cases, the Brown bear will even wait for the tigress to have her fill, leave the area and then it will approach the kill. And share the kill, in alternating turns. I already posted the studies from Dale Miquelle proving this.From biologists, Maurice Hornocker and Peter Matthiessen:Bears prefer to contest the much smaller female tigers, lest it become an item of tiger diet:
archive.org/details/tigersinsnow00matt?q=tigers+of+the+snow
Male Brown bears avoid challenging male tigers in fear of this happening to them....
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Post by dinosauria101 on Nov 25, 2019 3:16:31 GMT 5
mountainlordSo your source says a Siberian tiger kills a polar bear 7/10? Seems quit a lot given the size disparity 200 kg vs 400-500 kg
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. Even healthy captive polar bears overheat quickly outside their natural environment: