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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 20, 2019 17:30:26 GMT 5
Forgot to respond to that.
Does GuateGpjira know about this? He may need to update his chart.
In any case, although it's closer, I still favor the bear.
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Post by Life on Dec 20, 2019 20:11:15 GMT 5
Are you forgetting?, Sunquist clearly stated that tigers are capable of killing adult elephants and Rhinos:  I reached out to Dr. Mel Sunquist in this regard a few days ago, and his response is mentioned below verbatim: ​"Predation on young elephants and rhinos is known, but unlikely that a single tiger could kill an adult of either species. There are, however, observations/video of lion prides in Africa killing adult elephants."Exactly what I have attempted to convey to all here, on the basis of my grasp of scientific works as well as conventional wisdom. |
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Post by creature386 on Dec 20, 2019 22:15:29 GMT 5
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smedz
Junior Member
Posts: 195 
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Post by smedz on Dec 20, 2019 23:07:57 GMT 5
Forgot to respond to that. Does GuateGpjira know about this? He may need to update his chart. In any case, although it's closer, I still favor the bear. Why the update? |
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Post by Life on Dec 20, 2019 23:08:11 GMT 5
African elephants, particularly bulls, are way too big for any modern terrestrial predator to handle on its own - even a pride of lions really struggle to bring down a lone African elephant. Indian elephants are noticeably smaller though. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 20, 2019 23:51:33 GMT 5
African elephants, particularly bulls, are way too big for any modern terrestrial predator to handle on its own - even a pride of lions really struggle to bring down a lone African elephant. Indian elephants are noticeably smaller though.
Accounts of tigers killing adult elephants date back to over a century ago, and still continue to this day, in modern times. These accounts have been thoroughly examined, investigated and verified by the forest departments, officials, deputy directors and have been stated by some renowned biologists. They're 100% confirmed accounts.
Here, I'll just re-post what I said to you before:
The scientific journals you referenced never once disputed the specific accounts I posted about tigers killing adult elephants or Rhinos. Not once.
You fail to realise that scientists are not the top authorities in this regard. There are too many confirmed and verified reports of tigers killing both adult elephants and adult Rhinos, for them to be "fake" or "unreliable". These cases have been examined, reported and verified by forest officials, deputy directors, park rangers and wild animal veterinarians, who carried out post-mortem examinations to conclude exactly what happened. These are confirmed accounts!
Scientists don't work in the forest the way these people do. Forest officials, deputy directors, park rangers and the animal veterinarians are FAR MORE qualified than the "scientific" people in this regard. Its not even debatable. Their the ones that are in the forest, examining the cases and bodies of the dead elephants and Rhinos, not the biologists or scientists.
You put scientific people on some special pedestal that no person can match. Its ridiculous. The fact is, there is ALOT of reliable info and accounts from even hunters, as well as naturalists, forest guards and rangers that should be taken into account and accepted. In fact, scientists like Karanth have referenced accounts from old hunters in many of their books too. And accept those cases.
Scientists don't know everything, nor do they know everything about animals, period.
Also, show me actual PROOF that you contacted Sunquist? Show me the email? Or any proof?...
Did you show him that screen-shot I posted where he stated that tigers are capable of killing adult elephants and Rhinos? |
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Post by creature386 on Dec 21, 2019 0:19:19 GMT 5
As far as I remember, Life did acknowledge that predation can take place when the elephant is sick or injured (which is also what I meant by non-normal conditions).
As for Sunquist, he seems to have changed his mind, since in his 2017 book Wild Cats of the World, he specified elephant calves as the upper bound of tiger prey items.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 21, 2019 1:26:41 GMT 5
Forgot to respond to that. Does GuateGpjira know about this? He may need to update his chart. In any case, although it's closer, I still favor the bear. Why the update? The bear in his chart is about 36% larger |
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Post by Life on Dec 21, 2019 1:39:18 GMT 5
Although your a respectful person, I have to say your very ignorant. Even Creature386 can acknowledge the fact that tigers have killed adult elephants. Why can't you?
Accounts of tigers killing adult elephants date back to over a century ago, and still continue to this day, in modern times. These accounts have been thoroughly examined, investigated and verified by the forest departments, officials, deputy directors and have been stated by some renowned biologists. They're 100% confirmed accounts. And you are like all-knowing? Accounts of a lone Tiger preying upon adult elephants and Rhinos, are under scrutiny and being increasingly challenged in current times. Refer back to content in this post: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/49543--- --- --- Regarding tigers taking on elephants:You must be joking, right? Tigers are able to kill/consume elephant neonates but they stand no chance against an elephant adult unless it is really sick. A Tiger is likely to give ground when it notice an adult elephant approaching it. [1] [1] Disclosure from an Indian forest officer who posted the aforementioned video: "am an indian forest officer and in below comments many of them are commenting elephant is killed by tiger in many cases in india........ many times it happend here but it is just elephant calf..only even a leopard or a pack of dogs can killa an elephant calf.........in very rare cases a juvanile elephant is got killed by a tiger.............but aginst a fully grown elephants tiger could'nt do any thing many cases here reported adult tiger seriously injured due to kick of elephant...even death also........in order to maintain the tiger population tigers even shifted from elephant prone areas to other area......." --- --- --- The scientific journals you referenced never once disputed the specific accounts I posted about tigers killing adult elephants or Rhinos. Not once. Really? Refer back to content in this post: Link: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/52076Seidensticker and McDougal (1993), Karanth and Nichols (1998), and Andheria et al (2007) openly challenge claims of Tigers killing adult Elephants or Rhinos. Laurie (1981), Hazarika and Saikia (2010) and Thuppil and Coss (2013) highlight Tiger predation on calves of Elephants and Rhinos respectively. When viewed collectively, scientific consensus is obvious about a lone Tiger not being capable of killing adult Elephants or Rhinos. I have also provided rich scientific information about GLOBAL DIETARY PREFERENCES of Tigers in the same post, and conclusions are in front of you. You fail to realise that scientists are not the top authorities in this regard. There are too many confirmed and verified reports of tigers killing both adult elephants and adult Rhinos, for them to be "fake" or "unreliable". These cases have been examined, reported and verified by forest officials, deputy directors, park rangers and wild animal veterinarians, who carried out post-mortem examinations to conclude exactly what happened. These are confirmed accounts! Scientists don't work in the forest the way these people do. Forest officials, deputy directors, park rangers and the animal veterinarians are FAR MORE qualified than the "scientific" people in this regard. Its not even debatable. Their the ones that are in the forest, examining the cases and bodies of the dead elephants and Rhinos, not the biologists or scientists. You put scientific people on some special pedestal that no person can match. Its ridiculous. The fact is, there is ALOT of reliable info and accounts from even hunters, as well as naturalists, forest guards and rangers that should be taken into account and accepted. In fact, scientists like Karanth have referenced accounts from old hunters in many of their books too. And accept those cases. Scientists don't know everything, nor do they know everything about animals, period. You realize how stupid this sound? Scientists are not top authorities in this regard? Wait, what? Where are these too many confirmed and verified accounts of Tigers killing both adult elephants and adult Rhinos? No, I am not interested in textual stuff - show me live footage of these predation events. Post-mortem examinations do not exactly prove predation or scavenging. Do you realize and understand that virtually any predator will 'scavenge' as well? Perhaps quality of education of Indian Forest Officials, Deputy Directors, Park Rangers, and Animal Veterinarians, is in doubt, or you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting their views. How many Forest Officials, Deputy Directors, Park Rangers, and Animal Veterinarians have publications to their name in reputed journals by the way? Care to show me some? Do you think that scientists draw conclusions from literature body only? Researchers/Scientists have to collect data actually; reach out to informed people as well as try to observe a phenomenon of interest in its natural form. The process of data collection can take years to complete depending upon the nature of work. This is why 'research' is one of the most tedious and difficult tasks to undertake in the world, one of the most risky tasks as well in certain cases. Of-course, scientists don't know everything - no human does actually. However, scientists try to dig into a phenomenon of interest on a much deeper level than normal observers and provide rich information. Many scientists spend their entire lives studying a phenomenon of interest - as a profession. You need to learn to respect scientific assessment in real life, and for contributions in this forum as well. Also, show me actual PROOF that you contacted Sunquist? Show me the email? Or any proof?... Did you show him that screen-shot I posted where he stated that tigers are capable of killing adult elephants and Rhinos? Do you think I am lying? I might be less-informed about something but I do not lie or invent content. I will not post screenshots of a private conversation here in this thread - privacy factor. At most, I will provide evidence to my Co-administrator, and he will let you know. Experts are not necessarily interested in addressing 'arguments' in a forum anyways. I have no interest in showing your screenshots to him likewise. I have DEBUNKED your touts about Mel Sunquist in regards to Tigers being capable of killing adult Elephants and Rhinos. I deeply respect Mel Sunquist for responding to my query in this regard. Do not tempt me to DEBUNK more of your 'accounts' by reaching out to relevant experts. I will, mind you. |
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Post by Life on Dec 21, 2019 2:17:38 GMT 5
GreenArrowOne last thing, when Brown bears challenge tigers for their kills, in vast majority of these cases, these incidents consist of large male Brown bears that challenge much smaller female tigers, not adult male tigers. Even the largest Brown bears, strictly AVOID adult male tigers in fear of what could happen to them.This fact is well known and scientific studies have proven this. In fact, in most of the cases, the Brown bear will even wait for the tigress to have her fill, leave the area and then it will approach the kill. And share the kill, in alternating turns. I already posted the studies from Dale Miquelle proving this.From biologists, Maurice Hornocker and Peter Matthiessen:Bears prefer to contest the much smaller female tigers, lest it become an item of tiger diet:
archive.org/details/tigersinsnow00matt?q=tigers+of+the+snow
Male Brown bears avoid challenging male tigers in fear of this happening to them....
 Hmm LMAO It looks like Sloth Bears are learning to contend with Tigers in the wild. Not sure about Brown Bears though. |
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smedz
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by smedz on Dec 21, 2019 2:59:13 GMT 5
The bear in his chart is about 36% larger Source? |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 21, 2019 4:00:28 GMT 5
Didn't you say the mass difference is about 7 percent nowadays? GG gives more mass disparity in his chart than that
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smedz
Junior Member
Posts: 195
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Post by smedz on Dec 21, 2019 5:09:59 GMT 5
Didn't you say the mass difference is about 7 percent nowadays? GG gives more mass disparity in his chart than that I said it was a 7 pound difference on the average weights in modern times. That greater mass disparity is the maxes of the animals, not typically what you'll get in the wild. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 21, 2019 6:39:18 GMT 5
Ah, my bad.
So on average they are close but max the disparity is more?
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 21, 2019 7:57:52 GMT 5
Life
You are unbelievable! You never came close to "debunking" my accounts, not even close. So now your telling me that all these forest officials, park rangers and animal veterinarians that conducted post-mortem examinations to conclude what happened, are all bullshitting and lying?? Is this your reality?...
Karanth, Sunquist and all the other scientific experts you mentioned, never once disputed the specific accounts I posted of tigers killing adult elephants. What are you talking about?
Then you deliberately cherry-pick one single video, and one statement from an Indian forest officer, but what about all the verified accounts I posted reported by Indian forest officers, officials, forest rangers etc etc....of tigers killing adult elephants? Why don't you accept those accounts?
Numerous studies conducted by experts have shown consistently that rogue elephant herds, even aggressive bulls will immediately vacate an area, as soon as they hear the sound of tigers growls. Even large aggressive bull elephants have shown blatant fear of tigers on many occasions.
Here's another book about Indian wildlife and reserves - stating that instances of tigers killing ADULT Elephants are on record:
You cherry-pick selective opinions and accounts and ignorantly dismiss all the confirmed accounts I posted of tigers killing adult elephants. This is a joke.
And what about this account?....
Tiger attacks and critically injures a Bull elephant. ( Confirmed account )
Last night, a Royal Bengal tiger that sneaked into the swamp a couple of days back, attacked a bull elephant after killing a buffalo.
Villagers spotted the critically injured elephant this morning and informed the forest department, another forest official said.
www.telegraphindia.com/states/north-east/foresters-await-nod-to-sedate-herd-jumbos-camping-in-swamp/cid/568603
The experts you mentioned didn't even address these accounts, let alone dispute them. You have no clue.
Yeah, you heard me. Do you know why? Because these scientists that you hold on some type of god-like pedestal, are NOT in the forest personally examining these cases like the forest officials, park rangers and animal veterinarians do.
Who do you expect any sane person with common sense to believe, a scientist or the actual wildlife authorities that are at the sight of the actual killing, personally examining these cases up close and personal??
You have absolutely no legs to stand on here. These people are the authorities, not you, not Sunquist or any other scientist, period.
And are you forgetting?...Dr Pocock, who's a renowned tiger biologist, in his own book stated that tigers will even prey on ADULT female elephants.
And show me where Karanth outright disputed the accounts of tigers killing adult elephants? Even all the modern accounts reported by forest officials?
No, don't even try it. Any fool can blatantly lie and make-up claims that they "contacted" an expert. LOL...
You have to show me PROOF otherwise I can never take you seriously. At the end of the day, I don't personally know you, so you could easily be lying to me. Provide the proof?
And if you did contact Sunquist, then did you show him my screen-shot where he stated that tigers are capable of killing adult elephants and Rhinos?
Only in your little fantasy world did you "debunk" me. And whats the point of you reaching out to "relevant experts" when you never show the proof that you did? LMFAO!!
When smedz reached out to Dale Miquelle, he showed the email (PROOF) confirming that he did. So why can't you?
Now to the pointless tiger vs bear videos you posted....
These are juvenile tiger cubs! - Not adults. Any muppet can clearly see that. Look at the behaviour and size of the tigers. Their blatantly cubs.
Adult tigers slaughter sloth bears in the wild.
Here's a much better and relevant video between adults of both species:
Male tiger eating his adult Sloth bear kill - It also has footage of a tigress having a stand-off with an adult male sloth bear, and the bear runs away:
I can show you way more videos of tigers dominating and scaring away full-grown ADULT sloth bears, not cubs...but adult male bears!
I can even show you videos and accounts of tiny little HONEYBADGERS intimidating lions. But what does that prove?
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