mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 12, 2019 19:10:47 GMT 5
My post contains HOLISTICALLY meaningful information about Tigers from 8 scientific references in total, from renowned researchers/experts who have worked with big cats around the world - THE BIGGER PICTURE.
Mel Sunquist, who's one of the worlds TOP wildlife biologists, stated this about tigers killing adult elephants and Rhinos:
books.google.co.uk/books?dq=tigers+depend+on+a+large+ungulate+prey+base&hl=en&id=Z6USDAAAQBAJ&pg=
From another reliable source:
The tiger is the only land-carnivore on earth thats been known to charge and take down a full-grown male Elephant - one-on-one:
www.worldanimalfoundation.net/f/Tiger.pdf
Way more evidence in this thread:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalfightclub/tiger-kills-adult-elephants-and-rhino-accounts-t99.html
Then there's this male tiger from Dudhwa, known as the "Rhino Killer" thats killed at least THREE full-grown mature Rhinos on record:
www.facebook.com/TheVanishingStripes/photos/a.300226766807130/755693907927078/?type=3
You can even contact the naturalists on Facebook, and they'll confirm the account for you. So no excuses.
You clearly cherry-picked sources because I have a TON of other sources from EXPERTS, which confirm that tigers have killed adult elephants and Rhinos. So what you posted proved absolutely nothing, because I have plenty of reliable evidence from experts that debunks and refutes everything you posted and claimed.
Then you cherry-picked selective sources about tiger predation. Well, first of all, here's one very important FACT you have to consider, in most regions where tigers inhabit, large prey like gaur and wild water buffalo are EXTINCT. So tigers have to prey on smaller prey. Some areas lack large prey, like Chitwan, where Sunquist studied.
But Ullas Karanths studies consistently showed that tigers ROUTINELY prey on adult gaur, five times their own weight. Several other studies reported by tiger biologist, John Seidenstecker also showed that tigers always go after the largest prey available.
Here's some sources that debunk what you posted...
From renowned Tiger biologist - Dr John Seidenstecker
Tigers specialize in killing large deer, wild cattle and wild boars. Wild cattle (Gaurs) are also important prey for tigers - Tigers can kill prey ranging from the LARGE MALES of the wild cattle species, which top the scales at 1000 kg! Several investigators have found that tigers select the largest prey available.
The small Javan tiger ( weighing just 100 kg ) regularly preyed on wild Banteng and killed huge Banteng bulls weighing more than 800 kg!
archive.org/details/tigers00seid?q=tigers
From leading Bengal tiger expert/scientist - Ullas Karanth
Tigers routinely kill adult bull gaur:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=8vcoDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT36&dq=tigers+routinely+kill+adult+male+indian+bison+or+gaur&hl=en&sa=
In Nagarahole, where gaurs are abundant unlike most areas, Karanth observed that tigers routinely kill adult gaur, five times their own weight:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=W6ks4b0l7NgC&pg=PA57&dq=I+learnt+that+tigers+routinely+prey+on+adult+gaur+five+times+their+own+weight&hl=en&sa=
Tigers do take the largest suids, bovids and cervids. In Kanha National Park in central India, Schaller (1967) found that tigers killed gaur and swamp deer when they were part of the ungulate assemblages. Karanth (1988) reported heavy predation on solitary adult gaur in Nagarahole National Park in southern India:
citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.595.6296&rep=rep1&type=pdf
In Nagarahole, Karanth observed that tigers specifically selected the larger gaur and sambar over the much more abundant chital:
archive.org/details/PredatorsAndPrey-K.UllasKaranth/page/n27
And much more accounts, sources and data in this thread: www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalfightclub/tiger-predation-on-adult-gaur-wild-water-buffalo-a-t101.html
That source I posted is FAR FROM an exaggeration, fact. Of all the land-predators, the tiger on a solitary basis, routinely hunts and kills the largest prey than any other extant land predator, period. Numerous studies have consistently shown that wherever large prey is abundant, the tigers always go after them, and prefer them much more over the smaller prey.
Its even more efficient for a large predator like a tiger to kill large prey like adult gaur. They don't have to waste all that energy, which they would do trying to catch small, fast prey like deer.
Karanth explains why it is more efficient and easier for a tiger to hunt and kill large animals instead of small - The tigers of Nagarahole routinely feast on gaurs, favouring them over the much smaller spotted deer:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA278&dq=bull+gaur+kill+by+tiger+nagarahole&hl=en&sa=X&ved=
So its a FACT, and I repeat, a fact that tigers can and have single-handedly attacked and killed full-grown adult elephants and Rhinos. This cannot be disputed, whatsoever. There's too many confirmed and reliable accounts reported by tiger authorities that confirm this to be true and irrefutable.
And tigers do hunt larger prey than solitary lions. Buffalo made up less than 1% of the solitary lions diet. That says it all.
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Post by Life on Dec 12, 2019 19:40:13 GMT 5
My post contains HOLISTICALLY meaningful information about Tigers from 8 scientific references in total, from renowned researchers/experts who have worked with big cats around the world - THE BIGGER PICTURE.
Mel Sunquist, who's one of the worlds TOP wildlife biologists, stated this about tigers killing adult elephants and Rhinos:
books.google.co.uk/books?dq=tigers+depend+on+a+large+ungulate+prey+base&hl=en&id=Z6USDAAAQBAJ&pg=
From another reliable source:
The tiger is the only land-carnivore on earth thats been known to charge and take down a full-grown male Elephant - one-on-one:
www.worldanimalfoundation.net/f/Tiger.pdf
Way more evidence in this thread:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalfightclub/tiger-kills-adult-elephants-and-rhino-accounts-t99.html
Then there's this male tiger from Dudhwa, known as the "Rhino Killer" thats killed at least THREE full-grown mature Rhinos on record:
www.facebook.com/TheVanishingStripes/photos/a.300226766807130/755693907927078/?type=3
You can even contact the naturalists on Facebook, and they'll confirm the account for you. So no excuses.
You clearly cherry-picked sources because I have a TON of other sources from EXPERTS, which confirm that tigers have killed adult elephants and Rhinos. So what you posted proved absolutely nothing, because I have plenty of reliable evidence from experts that debunks and refutes everything you posted and claimed.
Then you cherry-picked selective sources about tiger predation. Well, first of all, here's one very important FACT you have to consider, in most regions where tigers inhabit, large prey like gaur and wild water buffalo are EXTINCT. So tigers have to prey on smaller prey. Some areas lack large prey, like Chitwan, where Sunquist studied.
But Ullas Karanths studies consistently showed that tigers ROUTINELY prey on adult gaur, five times their own weight. Several other studies reported by tiger biologist, John Seidenstecker also showed that tigers always go after the largest prey available.
Here's some sources that debunk what you posted...
From renowned Tiger biologist - Dr John Seidenstecker
Tigers specialize in killing large deer, wild cattle and wild boars. Wild cattle (Gaurs) are also important prey for tigers - Tigers can kill prey ranging from the LARGE MALES of the wild cattle species, which top the scales at 1000 kg! Several investigators have found that tigers select the largest prey available.
The small Javan tiger ( weighing just 100 kg ) regularly preyed on wild Banteng and killed huge Banteng bulls weighing more than 800 kg!
archive.org/details/tigers00seid?q=tigers
From leading Bengal tiger expert/scientist - Ullas Karanth
Tigers routinely kill adult bull gaur:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=8vcoDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT36&dq=tigers+routinely+kill+adult+male+indian+bison+or+gaur&hl=en&sa=
In Nagarahole, where gaurs are abundant unlike most areas, Karanth observed that tigers routinely kill adult gaur, five times their own weight:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=W6ks4b0l7NgC&pg=PA57&dq=I+learnt+that+tigers+routinely+prey+on+adult+gaur+five+times+their+own+weight&hl=en&sa=
Tigers do take the largest suids, bovids and cervids. In Kanha National Park in central India, Schaller (1967) found that tigers killed gaur and swamp deer when they were part of the ungulate assemblages. Karanth (1988) reported heavy predation on solitary adult gaur in Nagarahole National Park in southern India:
citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.595.6296&rep=rep1&type=pdf
In Nagarahole, Karanth observed that tigers specifically selected the larger gaur and sambar over the much more abundant chital:
archive.org/details/PredatorsAndPrey-K.UllasKaranth/page/n27
And much more accounts, sources and data in this thread: www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalfightclub/tiger-predation-on-adult-gaur-wild-water-buffalo-a-t101.html
That source I posted is FAR FROM an exaggeration, fact. Of all the land-predators, the tiger on a solitary basis, routinely hunts and kills the largest prey than any other extant land predator, period. Numerous studies have consistently shown that wherever large prey is abundant, the tigers always go after them, and prefer them much more over the smaller prey.
Its even more efficient for a large predator like a tiger to kill large prey like adult gaur. They don't have to waste all that energy, which they would do trying to catch small, fast prey like deer.
Karanth explains why it is more efficient and easier for a tiger to hunt and kill large animals instead of small - The tigers of Nagarahole routinely feast on gaurs, favouring them over the much smaller spotted deer:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA278&dq=bull+gaur+kill+by+tiger+nagarahole&hl=en&sa=X&ved=
So its a FACT, and I repeat, a fact that tigers can and have single-handedly attacked and killed full-grown adult elephants and Rhinos. This cannot be disputed, whatsoever. There's too many confirmed and reliable accounts reported by tiger authorities that confirm this to be true and irrefutable.
And tigers do hunt larger prey than solitary lions. Buffalo made up less than 1% of the solitary lions diet. That says it all.
RED PART = AD HOMINEM FYI: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/52097Learn to address an argument without attacking someone, for your own good. To me, quality of work is more important than individuals. Peer-reviewed scientific works = authentic (more credible than Bookish ACCOUNTS and otherwise). FYI: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/19/reliability-information However, since Tiger fans love to highlight statements of 'renowned experts' in their respective posts which might lend support to their individualistic biases (i.e. cherry picking as per member tijkil, but he loves to accuse all but Tiger fans in this respect), I am responding in the same token; I have provided quotes about dietary preferences of Tigers from peer-reviewed scientific publications of 'renowned experts' who have worked with and studied cats at large around the world. I have checked your posts, and there is no need for you to highlight same ACCOUNTS again and again. This post: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/52076- cover all I have to say about Tigers. That a Tiger is able to kill a relatively larger animal is not in dispute here but there is a limit to what a Tiger can handle all on its own (scientific works openly dispute ACCOUNTS which suggest that a lone Tiger is capable of challenging/killing an adult elephant or rhino - assuming healthy individuals) - these are peer-reviewed scientific publications in reputed journals from 'renowned experts' including Sunquist, Seidenstecker, and Karanth. Why not study these publications? Anybody will learn a great deal from these publications. If you cannot access them, let me know. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 13, 2019 18:06:28 GMT 5
Here's what you don't understand. You think when a scientific journal is written by "experts" that life just stops? Predations and killings stop in the wild too? NO, life goes on, animals go on and continue to do what they do. Scientists to this day are still learning new behaviour about animals they've been studying for decades already. Nature is unpredictable.
The scientific journals you referenced never once disputed the specific accounts I posted about tigers killing adult elephants or Rhinos. Not once.
You fail to realise that scientists are not the top authorities in this regard. There are too many confirmed and verified reports of tigers killing both adult elephants and adult Rhinos, for them to be "fake" or "unreliable". These cases have been examined, reported and verified by forest officials, deputy directors, park rangers and wild animal veterinarians, who carried out post-mortem examinations to conclude exactly what happened. These are confirmed accounts!
Scientists don't work in the forest the way these people do. Forest officials, deputy directors, park rangers and the animal veterinarians are FAR MORE qualified than the "scientific" people in this regard. Its not even debatable. Their the ones that are in the forest, examining the cases and bodies of the dead elephants and Rhinos, not the biologists or scientists.
You put scientific people on some special pedestal that no person can match. Its ridiculous. The fact is, there is ALOT of reliable info and accounts from even hunters, as well as naturalists, forest guards and rangers that should be taken into account and accepted. In fact, scientists like Karanth have referenced accounts from old hunters in many of their books too. And accept those cases.
Scientists don't know everything, nor do they know everything about animals, period.
Are you forgetting?, Sunquist clearly stated that tigers are capable of killing adult elephants and Rhinos:
Here, I'll show you even more proof from another well respected Tiger biologist - Dr Pocock
Pocock states that tigers will even prey on adult female elephants:
archive.org/stream/PocockMammalia1/pocock1#page/n257/mode/2up
So thats TWO renowned biologists that have stated that tigers will even prey on adult elephants. What more blatant proof do you need now?
Add this to all the confirmed accounts reported in the news by forest officials, directors etc....then its very clear that the cases of tigers killing adult elephants and Rhinos, is a irrefutable FACT.
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Post by sam1 on Dec 17, 2019 1:02:41 GMT 5
Just a notion.. an adult Asian elephant is quite a wide term. It can refer to an animal of only 2.5 tons of weight. It really isn't THAT big of an animal any more.
And in certain circumstances, it really shouldn't be impossible for a large, particularly skilled, aggressive and persistent Bengal tiger male to cause lethal injuries to a particularly vulnerable asian elephant. For example, some 15 kg dogs are perfectly capable of making some 150kg humans bleed to death. Freak occurrences can happen, and they do happen.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 17, 2019 1:54:18 GMT 5
Here's some food for thought:  The bear takes up 22540 square centimeters linearly, while the tiger takes up 28025 square cm linearly. The bear is over twice as robust as it is ~25% smaller visually but over 33% more massive |
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Post by sam1 on Dec 17, 2019 2:31:24 GMT 5
^ actually that is an excellent, spot on depiction, but not for the reasons you mention, dinosauria.
It's simply because it shows the two are basically equal in size. And it is why I voted for the tiger right away.
At parity, tiger is superior to the bear.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 18, 2019 20:48:43 GMT 5
Just a notion.. an adult Asian elephant is quite a wide term. It can refer to an animal of only 2.5 tons of weight. It really isn't THAT big of an animal any more. And in certain circumstances, it really shouldn't be impossible for a large, particularly skilled, aggressive and persistent Bengal tiger male to cause lethal injuries to a particularly vulnerable asian elephant. For example, some 15 kg dogs are perfectly capable of making some 150kg humans bleed to death. Freak occurrences can happen, and they do happen.
And at least you acknowledge the fact that freak occurrences do happen in the wild. Although I wouldn't call a case of a tiger killing an adult elephant a "freak occurrence" since it has happened numerous times throughout history and even occurs in modern times. Nature is unpredictable.
Here's an account reported by a respected tiger authority, naturalist, hunter and game warden; Colonel Kesri Singh, of a tiger that killed a Bull tusker elephant in a fight:
archive.org/details/onemanandathousa007524mbp/page/n5?q=one+man+and+a+thousand+tigers
The elephant is a very large and very slow, cumbersome animal compared to the lightning fast tiger. Once the tiger gets on top of the elephants back, its very hard for the elephant to shake the tiger off. The tiger will maul and tear into that elephant for a prolonged period of time, and eventually the elephant will bleed out and die.
Description on how a tiger kills an adult Elephant:
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 18, 2019 20:50:10 GMT 5
^ actually that is an excellent, spot on depiction, but not for the reasons you mention, dinosauria. It's simply because it shows the two are basically equal in size. And it is why I voted for the tiger right away. At parity, tiger is superior to the bear. Forgot to respond to this. The bear is over 33% more massive and a good deal bulkier, hardly the 'same size'. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 18, 2019 20:55:08 GMT 5
^ actually that is an excellent, spot on depiction, but not for the reasons you mention, dinosauria. It's simply because it shows the two are basically equal in size. And it is why I voted for the tiger right away. At parity, tiger is superior to the bear. Forgot to respond to this. The bear is over 33% more massive and a good deal bulkier, hardly the 'same size'.
The tiger possesses far more deadlier and lethal attributes than the Brown bear, which compensates for the size difference. |
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Post by brobear on Dec 19, 2019 4:59:02 GMT 5
The mature male Ussuri brown bear is off limits to the tiger. No tiger will ever choose him as potential prey. It is highly unlikely that a tiger will even attempt to defend a carcass from a mature male brown bear. The mature male "black grizzly" walks without fear of the tiger.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 19, 2019 18:52:45 GMT 5
Forgot to respond to this. The bear is over 33% more massive and a good deal bulkier, hardly the 'same size'.
The tiger possesses far more deadlier and lethal attributes than the Brown bear, which compensates for the size difference.After all those accounts you posted, out of curiosity, are there any of a brown bear and a tiger, each healthy individuals and the bear 36 percent heavier, fighting head on and the tiger winning? |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 19, 2019 19:42:29 GMT 5
The mature male Ussuri brown bear is off limits to the tiger. No tiger will ever choose him as potential prey. It is highly unlikely that a tiger will even attempt to defend a carcass from a mature male brown bear. The mature male "black grizzly" walks without fear of the tiger.
If the mature male Brown bear "walks without fear" of the tiger, then how comes biologist, Lev Kaplanov observed TWO, not one....but two instances of a very large male Brown bear showing blatant fear of tigers? Literally retreating from the sight of a male tigers tracks! How comes?...
Every single ridiculous claim you make, you have absolutely NO SHRED OF EVIDENCE to back it up, period. You continuously make stuff up and act like its a fact. Its a joke!
Then you claimed - "It is highly unlikely that a tiger will even attempt to defend a carcass from a mature male brown bear".
Again, more blatant lies and made-up rubbish. I have repeatedly posted blatant clear-cut evidence, which clearly shows that mature male Brown bears STRICTLY AVOID male tigers and prefer to contest the much smaller female tiger, lest it become an item of tiger diet.
Sorry Brobear, the mature male Brown bear avoids the mature male tiger, and evidence has even shown that some large male Brown bears FEAR tigers. Unlike you, I actually posted evidence to back up my claims.
And that source I posted is 100% correct, because tigers do hunt and kill everything in the taiga, from salmon, seals, ducks all the way to wild boar, Moose, Elk, adult Black bears and large adult Brown bears. Every creature in the forest gets killed and eaten by the tiger. This is what the real experts say, no one is gonna listen to the lies of a Bear fanatic who never posts any evidence.
I always post 100% reliable info and accounts from undisputed experts, biologists etc....and you just make-up ridiculous claims and never post any shred of proof to back up what you say. You cannot be taken seriously in this debate, because you never post any evidence. You just LIE.
As for kill-disputes, I already posted evidence that confirms that tigers DOMINATE Brown bears in kill-disputes, even winning most fights against them. Russian biologist, Matjushkyn - who studies tigers and bears in the wild - stated that when tigers encounter bears, the bear almost always surrenders its kill to the tiger. I even posted a second source stating the same thing.
Brobear, no matter what you claim or how many lies you spew, no serious intelligent person will ever take you seriously because you NEVER post any evidence, whatsoever. End of story.
The mature male Ussuri brown bear being "off limits" to the tiger is only a figment of Brobears imagination. Not reality. The funny thing is, I've already posted screen-shots of your posts from Wildfact, where you clearly stated that you think there's probably been hundreds of cases throughout history, of tigers killing full-grown healthy mature male Brown bears. Remember? looool...
You've been finished in this debate, easily. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 19, 2019 19:46:32 GMT 5
And yet despite this size advantage, the tiger still wins most fights against Brown bears. That clearly proves that size isn't everything.
The tiger possesses far more deadlier and lethal attributes than the Brown bear, which compensates for the size difference. After all those accounts you posted, out of curiosity, are there any of a brown bear and a tiger, each healthy individuals and the bear 36 percent heavier, fighting head on and the tiger winning?
If the average male Ussuri brown bear weighs more than 100lbs over the average male Amur tiger, then a large male Brown bear can easily be over 36% heavier, with the tiger still killing the bear. |
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smedz
Junior Member
Posts: 195 
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Post by smedz on Dec 20, 2019 2:38:29 GMT 5
^ actually that is an excellent, spot on depiction, but not for the reasons you mention, dinosauria. It's simply because it shows the two are basically equal in size. And it is why I voted for the tiger right away. At parity, tiger is superior to the bear. Forgot to respond to this. The bear is over 33% more massive and a good deal bulkier, hardly the 'same size'. Look at the averages in the size comparison in modern times.   On average, a 7 pound difference between the two. Not that much heavier. |
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