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Post by dinosauria101 on Feb 14, 2020 0:41:30 GMT 5
Yes, that's what I've been saying. The mentality of the bear (it may try to flee or not wish to fight at first, which would be a disadvantage) might make natural interactions misleading about a forum-style fight.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Feb 14, 2020 0:55:30 GMT 5
Yes, that's what I've been saying. The mentality of the bear (it may try to flee or not wish to fight at first, which would be a disadvantage) might make natural interactions misleading about a forum-style fight. But I'm talking about fights to the death, when the bear was also fully committed to fight and was still killed. You need to understand, not all fights are initiated by tigers, some statistics show that the Brown bears initiated more fights ( In need for food ) and still lost more often than not. Which shows that when both the tiger and bear are fully committed to fight, the bear still usually loses these fights. Thats the point. |
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Post by dinosauria101 on Feb 14, 2020 1:02:21 GMT 5
Hm.
I suppose the tiger can certainly win its fair share going off of that.
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 16:27:55 GMT 5
Mountainlord says: Honestly, I think the bear will need a very significant size advantage to win this fight. I've never heard of a single case, of any Brown bear killing a tiger in a fight, when both were at similar weights.
In Russia, a grizzly she-bear is at weight parity with a male Amur tiger. At equal head-and-body length ( a fair fight ) a male grizzly will have no less that a 100-pound weight advantage ( usually much more ) because bears are built thicker and stronger than cats. To date, even though bears are on the tiger's menu, there is not one single confirmed killing of a mature male grizzly by a tiger. Tigers hunt juvenile brown bears. There have been a few extremely rare cases of adult grizzly she-bears killed by tigers by ambush. In a face-off, the mature male grizzly will be the victor well over 90% of such fights.
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Post by elosha11 on Feb 14, 2020 17:08:57 GMT 5
^Hasn't mountainlord posted a number of reports from naturalists, native inhabitants, etc. indicating that tigers have occasionally killed adult male bears brown bears before? Also stating either male animal will win "over 90%" against the other is nothing more than opinion, not based on evidence. This fight is far closer than that, the documented evidence of their face offs makes that quite clear.
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 17:24:56 GMT 5
^Hasn't mountainlord posted a number of reports from naturalists, native inhabitants, etc. indicating that tigers have occasionally killed adult male bears brown bears before? Also stating either male animal will win "over 90%" against the other is nothing more than opinion, not based on evidence. This fight is far closer than that, the documented evidence of their face offs makes that quite clear. I'm sure Mountainlord has posted about tigers killing mature male grizzlies ( LOL ). But there has yet to be any such event confirmed. 90% is opinion yes; based on the fact that the grizzly is by far the stronger, smarter, more durable animal in this contest. |
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Post by elosha11 on Feb 14, 2020 17:55:27 GMT 5
Why would naturalists and others who observed such alleged killings not be credible?
Bigger/stronger, I'd agree with you. But Russian brown bears don't seem as big as something like a Kodiak, which I'd agree would normally out of the tiger's range. Smarter, quite possibly, but probably not much of a factor in the fight. The tiger is a better killer, which is why this contest is close no matter what. The evidence seems quite clear that each animal treats the other as a significant threat and that each has killed the other on occcasion.
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 19:05:37 GMT 5
According to the study.... a comparison of the average mature male Amur tiger and mature male black grizzly: Tiger: head and body length - 195 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ) - Grizzly: head and body length 196 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ). Tiger: shoulder height - 93 cm ( 3 feet ) - Grizzly: shoulder height - 115 cm ( 3 feet 9 inches ). Tiger: chest girth - 119 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches ) - Grizzly: 137 cm ( 4 feet 6 inches ). Tiger: weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) - Grizzly: 264 kg ( 582 pounds ). Consider that a 400+ pound tiger will not go nose-to-nose with a -300 pound sloth bear and go-in for the kill. A sloth bear can and will displace a leopard from its kill without any physical contact. A black bear can and will displace a cougar from its kill without a fight. The size ratio between the leopard and the sloth bear / between the cougar and the black bear is pretty much the same as between a tiger and a black grizzly. The tiger will not go head-on against a smaller sloth bear. He sure as hell is not going to attempt to take-on a grizzly face-to-face. These predators have shared the Russian taiga for about a million years. They know each other.  |
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 19:11:03 GMT 5
Oops, sorry. Wrong pic.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Feb 14, 2020 21:36:56 GMT 5
Mountainlord says: Honestly, I think the bear will need a very significant size advantage to win this fight. I've never heard of a single case, of any Brown bear killing a tiger in a fight, when both were at similar weights. In Russia, a grizzly she-bear is at weight parity with a male Amur tiger. At equal head-and-body length ( a fair fight ) a male grizzly will have no less that a 100-pound weight advantage ( usually much more ) because bears are built thicker and stronger than cats. To date, even though bears are on the tiger's menu, there is not one single confirmed killing of a mature male grizzly by a tiger. Tigers hunt juvenile brown bears. There have been a few extremely rare cases of adult grizzly she-bears killed by tigers by ambush. In a face-off, the mature male grizzly will be the victor well over 90% of such fights.
A grizzly she-bear is NOT at weight parity with a male Amur tiger. They are generally smaller.
And tigers do not just hunt "juvenile Brown bears"....another lie from you! - You are well aware of the fact that there's been MANY accounts of full-grown adult Brown bears being killed by tigers. Adult Brown bears are killed and eaten far more often than you assume. How? Because this has been proven by scientific studies and data.
Go learn what the words "Extremely" and "rare" mean.
In a face-off, the mature male grizzly being victor in well over 90% of fights is only a figment of your imagination. Not facts and reality. Fight statistics show that the tiger usually dominates the Brown bear in face-off fights.
Brobear, you are a very disingenuous person. I have posted many accounts of tigers killing adult Brown bears, yet you still continue to say that it "rarely" happens. Why lie?
If the mature male grizzly is so superior to the tiger, then why is the Amur tiger widely regarded by both the Russians and Chinese to be the undisputed Lord and Master of the taiga?
theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/3382/tiger-brown-bear-lord-taiga
Just like John Vaillant was told by the experts, there is NO CREATURE in the taiga, thats off limits to the tiger, period. Not even your precious mature male grizzly bear. |
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 21:44:01 GMT 5
Size of Amur Tigers.
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 21:46:30 GMT 5
A comparison of the Amur tigress and the Amur ( black grizzly ) she-bear - Average Sized Animals:
Tiger: head and body length - 172 cm ( 5 feet 8 inches ) - Grizzly: head and body length - 160 cm ( 5 feet 3 inches ).
Tiger: shoulder height - 78 cm ( 2 feet 8 inches ) - Grizzly: shoulder height - 96 cm ( 3 feet 2 inches ).
Tiger: weight - 137.5 kg ( 303 pounds ) - Grizzly: weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ).
*Average mature male Amur tiger and average mature female Amur grizzly = 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) each - the bear is 35.56 cm ( 14 inches ) shorter in head and body length.
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Post by brobear on Feb 14, 2020 21:49:42 GMT 5
THE BROWN BEAR IS RUSSIA'S NATIONAL ANIMAL. "BROWN BEARS ARE VERY STRONG, SMART, AND QUICK, THIS MAKES IT EASY TO SEE WHY RUSSIANS CHOSE THE BROWN BEAR AS THEIR NATIONAL ANIMAL."  |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Feb 14, 2020 21:52:33 GMT 5
A comparison of the Amur tigress and the Amur ( black grizzly ) she-bear - Average Sized Animals: Tiger: head and body length - 172 cm ( 5 feet 8 inches ) - Grizzly: head and body length - 160 cm ( 5 feet 3 inches ). Tiger: shoulder height - 78 cm ( 2 feet 8 inches ) - Grizzly: shoulder height - 96 cm ( 3 feet 2 inches ). Tiger: weight - 137.5 kg ( 303 pounds ) - Grizzly: weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ). *Average mature male Amur tiger and average mature female Amur grizzly = 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) each - the bear is 35.56 cm ( 14 inches ) shorter in head and body length.
But the largest female Ussuri Brown bears can get to well over 200 kg, and according to Amur tiger biologist, Linda Kerley, tigers even hunt and kill the LARGEST and healthiest female Brown bears. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Feb 14, 2020 21:55:34 GMT 5
THE BROWN BEAR IS RUSSIA'S NATIONAL ANIMAL. "BROWN BEARS ARE VERY STRONG, SMART, AND QUICK, THIS MAKES IT EASY TO SEE WHY RUSSIANS CHOSE THE BROWN BEAR AS THEIR NATIONAL ANIMAL."
The fact is, that both the Amur tiger and Grizzly bear co-exist in Russia and China, and the Amur tiger is widely regarded to be the UNDISPUTED LORD, MASTER AND KING OF THE TAIGA.
In the actual forest, the tiger is acknowledged to be the king and undisputed supreme ruler of the forest. Not the Brown bear. That says it all.
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