guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160 
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Post by guategojira on Apr 1, 2014 6:07:43 GMT 5
About the monograph, here is the list of the documents; all are in Russian, check the chapter 19: www.wcsrussia.org/Publications/TigerMonograph/tabid/2082/Default.aspxI will try to translate it latter. However, I found an official document of 2005 that summarize that chapter, here is the translation via Google:  The data and the results are more than eloquent for me. Not the best translation (a problem from Google), but the conclusions are clear. To this, you most add the record of Vaillant about tiger vs bear (images thanks to peter):   Tiger is the predator, bear is the prey and/or competitor, but the people on the area, which had observed far more accounts that any of us, claim that the tiger is the king of the Taiga. |
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Post by Vodmeister on Apr 2, 2014 3:22:55 GMT 5
Interesting stuff Guate. In the book "Tigers in the snow" it is also stated that brown bears generally only confront tigresses and avoid male tigers.  |
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Post by Vodmeister on Apr 3, 2014 4:15:54 GMT 5
Weaponry is probably one of the best arguments in favor of the feline at parity; theworldofanimals.proboards.com/post/20583D bite force studies suggest that brown bears might be closer to tigers in jaw strength than previously thought, but its jaw gape and canines are still significantly inferior. |
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Post by creature386 on Apr 3, 2014 19:45:16 GMT 5
Don't shorter canines normally allow a larger gape? I know that the bear is hopelessly inferior in terms of skull size at parity, but at normal sizes, it may be a lot closer.
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Post by Vodmeister on Apr 3, 2014 20:31:37 GMT 5
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pckts
Junior Member
Posts: 158
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Post by pckts on Apr 7, 2014 23:15:51 GMT 5
I still never buy in to the "stamina or grappling ability"
I feel a grizzle is a hug or shove type of grappler. While a tiger can use its claws to sink in and then manipulate you where he wants because his claws are more or less a part of your body once they are dug in and where he wants you to go, he can usually pull or push you that way.
Stamina is a subjective argument, but tigers, lions and other big cats have been seen fighting for hours on end. A tiger may not chase animals as far, but that has to do with the amount of energy they use for a kill. Watch a bear fight a larger prey, it is a longer more slow moving fight while the bear looks for a way to overpower its victim. But tigers tend to use all necessary energy to seize the throat bite which ends a fight quicker. A marathon runner has larger lung capacity or "stamina" than a sprinter, but look at their body types. A sprinter is nothing but lower body power and mass while a distance runner is more fat and less musculature because they burn muscle and fat while running long distance because larger muscles will require to much oxygen. While looking at a bear's body compared to a tigers you can kind of see that. Not that a bear is not muscular but it is also fat and its gape or stride is short on energy conserving compared to a tiger who is built like a powerlifter or body builder and has a massive stride that requires more energy.
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Post by firestone on Apr 23, 2014 4:44:42 GMT 5
Vodmeister,
TIGERS IN THE SNOW 2000 By Peter Mathiessen and Maurice Hornocker.
Page 8, ( In many accounts of tiger-bear confrontations, both animals are alleged to have been victors; however, it is commonly agreed that the bear prefer to contest much smaller tigress, lest it become an item of tiger diet.
you've posted this already.
I'd say Amur tiger vs. Ussuri brown bear is 50/50.
You can tell this to black ice on carnivorumforum
The newspaper account of a HUGE female Russian brown bear name rosie killing a 500 pound male Bengal tiger name prince. The question is which Russian brown bear species ? You have the Kamchatka Russian bear, the Siberian bear, and the Ussuri bear. I believe the Ussuri and Siberian species were the only species of Russain bear used in circuses back then.
FACING THE BIG CATS 1965 By Clyde Beatty.
Page 279, more in mishief than any thought of scrapping, the bears (Russian brown bears) would reach out for the tigers as they entered the ring. After they were clawed and bit up a few times, the Russian bears realized how dangerous tigers are.
also on Page 279, Nellie the tigress defeats a big Russian brown bear name bill 3 times.
Page 280, The same bear name bill kills a tigress name "lil" by attacking her from behind, as she fell off her stool, and while she lay sprawed on the ground in FRONT of him. Beatty said that had bill not sneak attacked from behind and "lil" had time to defend herself, bill would have been a goner. So bill emerged as probably the only bear that killed a tiger.
The original account of nellie the tigress defeating bill the Russian bear 3 times and the same bill killing "lil"
is in
BIG CAGE 1933 By Clyde Beatty.
Page 99.
Though boldchamp on W.A.E. said nellie vs. bill was a skimish and not a fight to the death, it doesn't matter, even if it was a skimish, a MUCH smaller tigress defeated a MUCH larger MALE Russian bear 3 times.
Beatty does not mention rosie the female Russian bear killing prince the Bengal tiger in FACING THE BIG CATS 1965. Rosie killing prince occured in 1942, 23 years later. So rosie killing prince evidently was a VERY RARE occurence, because Beatty states in BIG CAGE 1933 and FACING THE BIG CATS 1965 how Bengal tigers male and female defeated Russian bruins.
WILD TIGERS & TAME FLEAS 1958 By Bill Ballantine.
Page 54, A bear with EVERY advantage can annihlate any big cat.
Roman Proske lost 2 tigers and a lion to bears. Clyde Beatty's tigress was murdered by a bear.
But the bear wins against the big cats only in a SNEAK-ATTACK. Given a fair shake fight at equal weights, the big cat would win.Famed wild animal circus owner Al G. Barnes states in his memoirs of a SMALL zebra dispatching a LARGE grizzly bear to insensibility by ONE well-placed kick to the forehead
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Apr 24, 2014 1:41:13 GMT 5
With all respect, I will not give a cent for the reliability of Beatty. He was just an animal abuser and a terribly lion-biased that hated tigers. He is even smiling with a dead tigress (killed by a bear) in a picture!
Besides, captive animals fights are not entirely reliable for comparison as there are human factors that change the results, for example check that the bear killed the tigress when she was not even in balance, that was not a fair fight.
Check my previous posts, there you can see the real behavior of wild bears and tigers.
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Post by firestone on Apr 26, 2014 4:56:16 GMT 5
With all respect Beatty DID NOT hate tigers. Typical tiger fanatic lie.
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Apr 26, 2014 10:10:11 GMT 5
With all respect Beatty DID NOT hate tigers. Typical tiger fanatic lie. Jajajaja, typical lion fanatic excuse.  Beatty DO hated tigers, he was even arrested for animal cruelty. Are you going to denied this?  Beatty is one of the BEST examples of ANIMAL CRUELTY. He even trained his tigers to be afraid of lions. Are you going to denied this also??  Finally, this is a "Bear vs Tiger" topic, respect it and don't change the subject, spammer! |
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Post by firestone on Apr 28, 2014 7:30:15 GMT 5
Hey vodmeister, how's it going.
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Post by firestone on Apr 28, 2014 7:40:05 GMT 5
guate,
STOP LYING !! Beatty DID NOT hate tigers in all 4 of his books there is no mention of him being arrested for animal cruety, and he did not train tigers to be afraid of lions. If that isn't the most stupid idiotic nonsense I've heard from a tiger fanatic. STOP LYING !! I HATE LIARS !! You stupid imbecilic idiotic moronic tiger fanatics just cannot accept the truth that lions dominate tigers. The bottom line is you have LOST the lion vs. tiger debate. boldchamp and prime on W.A.E. and A.V.A. has tore you to SHREDS that you'll need psych MEDS. The lion vs. tiger debate is OVER with. Lions dominate tigers and that's just the way it is, get over it.
This is your second warning, another name calling and you will get banned.
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guategojira
Junior Member
Now I become death, the destroyer of worlds!
Posts: 160
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Post by guategojira on Apr 28, 2014 8:43:21 GMT 5
Insults, the ONLY weapon of the hard-core-lion-fanatics.
I forgive your lies and I will ignore your insults.
After all this, you will be banned. Persons like you don't deserve to post is this good and respectable forum.
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 23, 2014 5:10:28 GMT 5
The answer to this duel is pretty simple, the Tiger will WIN, most of the time.  Why? Well, there is right now an ecological duel in the Russian Far East and the evidence suggests that the tigers dominate. Scientists from the Siberian Tiger Project have been working since 1992 and had found that the male tigers and male bears avoid each other because they know that they are a real danger form them and there is no need to enter in a futile fight. Now, bears are known to follow young and female tigers and they steal them kills when they can. These are the “satellite” bears that specifically follow these relative small sized tigers, and in all cases, these are male bears. However, when a fight arises and if the bear wins, they are able to eat the dead tiger and there are several accounts of these situations in literature. However, the only true male killed in this fights was a 3 year old tiger, obviously not fully grown. On the other hand, tigers don’t follow bears to steall they kills, they follow them to KILL them as kills, but only when they natural prey is scarce. There are also several records of tigers killing bears, and these are not only females, but also male bears of up to 320 kg. There is a case recorded by Yankovsky (quoted by Mazák, 1983) where he hunted a huge tiger that was eating an enormous male bear, however the tiger was also very large, estimated at no less than 300 kg, so there was some parity on the size. The modern records presents some tigers, like the male P-20 (AKA “Dale”) that specialized in killing bears of slightly over its own size (ranging from 170 to 205 kg according with 3 captures). It seems that tigresses kill female bears and they cubs only, while male tigers can and do kill males and females (more biased to the second case, obviously). So, in conclusion, male tigers and male bears avoid each other (there is no reason to fight), but they attack females in both cases (bears steal prey, and if they can, kill and eat; tigers directly kill and eat). It seems that the evidence suggest that tigers directly predate on bears, while bears are specialized in steal tiger kills and predate on them indirectly. I understand that, the tiger being the hunter, there is certainly more bears killed by tigers than tigers killed by bears. This is because it is the tiger who chooses what bear to stalk. At a kill site, the tiger generally has greater need of the carcass and will generally be more determined than the bear to defend it. Also note that it takes a longer stretch of time ( more years ) for a grizzly to reach full maturity; which means that there are far more juvenile bears ( sub-adults ) percentage wise among the bears than among the tiger population. Chances are, a great many confrontations occur between young bears and mature tigers. |
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Post by 0ldgrizz on Nov 23, 2014 15:03:07 GMT 5
It is my understanding that the biggest bear reportedly killed by Dale weighed roughly 440 pounds. Dale ranged from 375 to 452 pounds, meaning that dale might have weighed just about as much as the she-bear. Also, a tiger is found feeding on a large male grizzly. The bear might have been suffering from old age or sick, or possibly already wounded from a fight with another bear or a gun-shot wound. Nothing here is certain. I'm not saying that a large male tiger cannot kill a 700 pound grizzly in an ambush attack, but simply that a tiger feeding on a carcass is less than a proven fact. I am also saying that, in my opinion, a tiger killing a grizzly in an ambush attack and killing a grizzly in a face-off is entirely two different scenarios. According to studies made in 2012, the average mature male Ussuri brown bear weighs 595 pounds; the average mature she-bear 320 pounds. The average mature male Amur tiger, as I understand it, weighs 420 pounds and the tigress 265 pounds. This gives a male black grizzly on average a weight advantage of 175 pounds over a male tiger and a she-bear a meager weight advantage of 55 pounds over the tigress. I have taken a new stance on this fight, after learning from Peter and GuateGojira. My opinions might not be exactly as theirs, but much different from my former ideas. I believe that, at weight parity, a mature male tiger will most often defeat the grizzly. A healthy mature male Amur tiger comes face-to-face with a healthy mature male Ussuri brown bear, I would give the grizzly roughly a 75% chance of defeating the tiger. The tiger is roughly two thirds the weight of the bear. In an ambush attack, I would give the bushwhacker perhaps a 75% chance of making a kill. The relationship between tiger and grizzly ( brown bear ) is comparable to that of the lion and the spotted hyena. They simply don't like each other. This animosity likely began in China during the Pleistocene. I could also compare them to the lion and the African buffalo. Lions hunt, ambush, and kill buffalo. Sometimes, the buffalo kills the lion. They obviously do not have warm feelings for each other. I will add that, although there are no records actually confirmed of tigers stalking and killing healthy mature male grizzlies; I do believe that it happens, although certainly not on a regular basis. I would in fact find it difficult to imagine that it never happens. |
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Beatty DO hated tigers, he was even arrested for animal cruelty. Are you going to denied this? 
