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Post by brobear on Dec 30, 2019 22:46:21 GMT 5
I can post more. Bottom line, can you give me any reason to believe that a tiger would behave differently from a cougar or a leopard when faced by a bear which is comparatively of the same size as leopard/sloth bear or cougar/black bear? The size ratio between the Ussuri brown bear and the tiger is pretty-much the same. It is all about big cat behavior.
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Post by dinosauria101 on Dec 30, 2019 22:55:27 GMT 5
Because the species behavior may vary? Different big cats have different aggression levels, and tigers to my knowledge are some of the more aggressive.
I do favor the bear here, but just food for thought.
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Dec 30, 2019 23:28:29 GMT 5
lmao, How many forums and servers have you been yeeted from with your cancerous borderline obsessive behavior again? i don't think copy pasting is really useful. In fact, i would count on the fact you don't understand most of what you post.
And like I said before, you haven't contributed nothing, absolutely nothing to this topic. So I don't know why your running your mouth for. Your trolling.I do enjoy the fact that you ignored the comment about you lot getting yeeted from other forums and servers. That says all anybody really needs to know tbh. |
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Post by Ceratodromeus on Dec 30, 2019 23:29:00 GMT 5
Wait, why are you only picking on me? How comes you didn't say anything to Ceratodromeus, when he for no reason starting talking shit to me? Cerato has already received a warning from Infinity Blade He cant read I laughed so hard it brought a tear to my eye, damn it. |
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Post by brobear on Dec 30, 2019 23:59:26 GMT 5
Because the species behavior may vary? Different big cats have different aggression levels, and tigers to my knowledge are some of the more aggressive. I do favor the bear here, but just food for thought. You favor the bear in a confrontation. That's good. But as for cat behavior, I do believe that there is such a thing as basic cat behavior. A cougar will ( sometimes ) attempt to bluff a bear in defense of his kill. He will not make physical contact. The only confrontation that I have discovered about a leopard being displaced by a sloth bear, again there was no physical contact. In fact, the sloth bear seemed to give the leopard no notice whatsoever. Now, you might consider the tiger to be "much more cat" than either the cougar or the leopard; but the size ratio between the big cat and the bear is the same. Also consider that the grizzly is pound-for-pound a more powerful bear than either the black or the sloth. For this reason, I see no reason to believe that a big boar grizzly would hesitate to displace a tiger of any age, sex, or size from his kill. |
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Post by elosha11 on Dec 31, 2019 0:13:38 GMT 5
I can post more. Bottom line, can you give me any reason to believe that a tiger would behave differently from a cougar or a leopard when faced by a bear which is comparatively of the same size as leopard/sloth bear or cougar/black bear? The size ratio between the Ussuri brown bear and the tiger is pretty-much the same. It is all about big cat behavior. Well first, there was a recent study showing very little weight difference between male Amur tigers and bears, so your point as to current conflicts may be moot. Historically, brown bears are certainly capable of growing larger than even the biggest Amurs, but on the other hand -- whether you agree with his tone or not -- mountainlord has posted a number of accounts and I think even videos in this forum and also others, in which tigers killed even male brown bears. Your accounts are helpful to fully thresh out the back and forth, and thanks for posting them. Personally, I think this contest is pretty much a 50/50, as there's plenty of evidence going both ways, although I daresay there's more in favor of the tiger than the bear. But at absolute parity, say a 500 pound tiger v a 500 pound brown bear of either sex, I'm going with the tiger, based on the evidence posted, with of course the understanding that 500 pound bear is not, historically, a very large male. Tigers are certainly not super animals, they have their weaknesses just like any other animal. I'd favor a Kodiak or polar bear against an Amur. As to cats' behavior, there's just too much evidence posted of tigers killing brown bears of all sizes for me to think they don't occasionally prey on even male Ussuri brown bears. This, of course, is the direct opposite of what your speculations on cat behavior would suggest. |
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 0:42:35 GMT 5
Amur tiger compared with Ussuri brown bear:  |
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 0:48:09 GMT 5
Quote: mountainlord has posted a number of accounts and I think even videos in this forum and also others, in which tigers killed even male brown bears. You can talk to Peter or Ursus arctos middendorffi - there has yet to be discovered even a single verified account of a tiger under any circumstances killing a mature male grizzly ( brown bear ). There has been a few maybes - where a tiger is found feeding on a carcass; while verifies nothing.  www.redorbit.com/education/reference_library/animal_kingdom/mammalia/1112523651/ussuri-brown-bear-ursus-arctos-lasiotus/The Ussuri brown bear, sometimes called the black grizzly, can be found in many regions including the Korean Peninsula, Kunashiri Islands, northeastern China, Sakhalin, and the Shantar Islands, among other places. It is a subspecies of the brown bear. The Usurri brown bear is thought to be an ancestor of the North American brown bear, and may have traveled to its current locations from Alaska 13,000 years ago. This bear has many similarities to the Kamchatka brown bear, but its differences include a slightly darker color, a longer skull, cheekbones that are not as separated, and a lower forehead. The skulls of adult males can reach a width of 9.2 inches and a length of up to 15.2 inches. The Ussuri brown bear can differ in size depending on its location; bears in the southern regions of Injeba’k Mountain can weigh up to five hundred and fifty-one pounds, while the bears found north of the mountain can weigh up to 1,322 pounds. The status of the Ussuri brown bear in most of its regions is endangered, except in Russia where the bear is occasionally hunted. In Heilongjiang, there are around 500-1,500 bears, and even with its status as a vulnerable species, is still hunted for its valuable body parts. In Hokkaido, there are five different subpopulations of these bears. The small population in western Ishikari, numbering around 152 bears at most, has been listed as endangered in Japan’s Red Data Book. The population of up to 135 bears in the Teshio-Mashike Mountains has also been listed as endangered. The numbers of Ussuri bears in these regions are so small because of human forestry practices, excessive harvesting, and the construction of roads. In Korea, there are only a few of the Ussuri brown bear left in existence. This has led them to become a national monument. There are two main populations of this bear in North Korea; the JaGang province and HamKyo’ng Mountains. In South Korea, the Ussuri brown bear is extinct, mainly because of poaching. The Ainu people, natives to areas of Japan and Russia, actually worshipped this bear and would perform rituals that included ingesting the bear’s meat and blood. The Ussuri brown bears in Sikhote Alin are known to live in burrows that have been dug into hillsides. They have also been known, although rarely, to dig ground burrows or live in rock outcroppings. This bear has rare encounters with other bears in the area, as it prefers to live at higher elevations. On the Island of Sakhalin, bears will feed on a various number of things. In middle Sakhalin, they will feed on the previous year’s supply of ants, flotsam (or wreckage), and bilberry, and before hibernation will eat mainly rhizomes and tubers from tall grasses. On the southern areas of the island, Ussuri bears will feed on flotsam, maple twigs, and insects. The summer diet will consist of chokeberries and currents. The Ussuri brown bears in Hokkaido will eat many things including fish, small mammals, birds, and even ants. The Ussuri brown bear is known to have interactions with Siberian tigers, as they are sometimes hunted by them. It is thought that the tigers have little impact of the bears because they also exist in small numbers. Typically, attacks from tigers will occur while the bears are hibernating. They are attacked more than small bears because of their tendency to live in more open spaces, and because they cannot climb trees. Tigers are able to kill the bears by latching onto the back, one paw holding onto the chin and the other latching onto the throat. The killing blow is dealt when the tiger bites into the bear’s spinal column. Tigers will eat mainly fatty parts of the bears’ body, including the legs, groin, and back. These attacks typically occur when the tiger’s main prey of hoofed animals have a low population count. Reports of Ussuri brown bears hunting Siberian tigers have been reported. These incidents occur because of disputes over prey or territory. Some bears will change their course if they smell a tiger has passed, while others will follow the tiger’s trail and even sleep in its den. It has even been reported that some Ussuri bears have followed tigers in order to eat the leftovers from its kills. Scientists have dubbed these bears “satellite bears” because of this frequent behavior. The Ussuri brown bear has attacked humans before, and the attacks are well documented. In the Sankebetsu brown bear incident, occurring in Sankei in the Sankebetsu district in December of 1915, seven people were killed. The eight hundred and thirty-seven pound bear attacked twice, killing the second set of victims during the prefuneral vigil being held for the first victims. This incident is thought to be the cause of the bear’s man eating image. During the first fifty-seven years of the 20th century, the Ussuri bear injured three hundred people, and one hundred and forty-one were killed. |
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mountainlord
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Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 2:29:28 GMT 5
Brobear
Thank you! - You have further confirmed that there is no shred of real evidence to suggest that an adult male Brown bear would displace a male tiger from his kill, and you have posted absolutely nothing of substance that proves that a tiger will not predate on a mature male Brown bear.
You posted two accounts of large male Brown bears killing young 3 year old male tigers, not full-grown males. Then you posted a unreliable source from a book on bears, claiming that adult male tigers were killed by Brown bears. There's no reliable literature that confirms these cases.
Also, Peter is not an expert, he's just another forum poster. Peter has also never claimed to be an "expert" on tigers vs bears. He's far, far from being any type of authority in this regard. I posted direct evidence from undisputed Russian authorities, experts and biologists which clearly shows the tigers dominance over the Brown bear, and all you can desperately resort to is referencing Peter, who's not even an expert on this topic. - Its ridiculous.
To get to the reality of this topic, you have to go to the Russian authorities, biologists, naturalists, hunters, natives etc....who spend their lives in the forest studying these animals. Not Peter, who's a random forum poster like everyone else.
Everything you claim is based off your own made-up assumptions, not facts or reality. Your living in a dreamworld.
I have posted screen-shots of your own posts from Wildfact, where you have outright admitted and stated that you think there's probably hundreds of cases of tigers killing full-grown healthy mature male Brown bears. I have posted screen-shots of your posts where you also stated that you think at least on a occasional basis, big mature male Brown bears are killed and eaten by tigers from time to time. I have posted all of this which exposes your two-faced personality and blatant deceitful behaviour in this debate.
Right here, take a look: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/483/ussuri-brown-bear-siberian-tiger?page=18
The funny thing is, even "King Kodiak" who's a hardcore Bear fanatic, told you a few days ago that adult male Brown bears avoid male tigers because the risk is simply too high. But you still can't accept that fact and admit the truth, even when a fellow Bear fanatic tells you too. That says it all.
And you still haven't responded to my points and questions from my other posts. Typical from a liar.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 2:35:00 GMT 5
Also Brobear, tigers very frequently prey on both Brown bears and Black bears. Bears are a regular prey item for tigers and are a very important food source for tigers especially in the summer months.
Recent studies have shown that bears comprise a large significant portion of the tigers diet. Up to 31%.
I have posted all the data and studies on this thread here: theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/3105/tiger-predation-on-bears
I'm sorry, whether you like it or not - but bears are regularly killed and eaten by tigers, especially in the summer months. Claws of ADULT bears were also found repeatedly in the excreta of tigers. The studies and data confirm this.
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Post by creature386 on Dec 31, 2019 3:22:11 GMT 5
Just deleted this post from mountainlord (addressing Cerato):The reason was that the fight between you two has been going on for far too long and this comment in particular added so little to the "discussion" that I didn't think anything would be lost.
That being said, I can understand Cerato's point about the bans. If you work at, say, 20 different companies and they all kick you out, do you think it's because all bosses have conspired to be mean to you?
Maybe you know more about the bans than we do. Maybe they where all unjustified, but you don't want to explain, for some reason. If so, that's fine. But if you don't want to counter Cerato's accusations, why continue this fight?
Only continue your discussion with him if you have concrete responses. If you want to stop talking to him, don't worry. I can delete any unprovoked attacks on you by Ceratodromeus in this case.
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 4:01:17 GMT 5
Quote: Thank you! - You have further confirmed that there is no shred of real evidence to suggest that an adult male Brown bear would displace a male tiger from his kill.
The evidence is in the fact that according to big cat behavior, a mature male grizzly would not hesitate to displace a tiger from his kill. The size ratio between a cougar and a black bear or a leopard and a sloth bear is no different than between a tiger and a grizzly. So, considering that there is no reason to believe that a tiger would perform differently from other big cats, then it is up to you to prove that a tiger will stand his ground and defend his kill from a grizzly. Of course if he tried to, it would be an act of suicide for the tiger.
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Post by brobear on Dec 31, 2019 4:04:43 GMT 5
Quote: Also Brobear, tigers very frequently prey on both Brown bears and Black bears. Bears are a regular prey item for tigers and are a very important food source for tigers especially in the summer months.
I've never denied that tigers prey upon juvenile brown bears and on rare occasion will ambush and kill a mature she-bear. Even a mature male black bear shows little fear of tigers.
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 7:29:40 GMT 5
Just deleted this post from mountainlord (addressing Cerato):The reason was that the fight between you two has been going on for far too long and this comment in particular added so little to the "discussion" that I didn't think anything would be lost. That being said, I can understand Cerato's point about the bans. If you work at, say, 20 different companies and they all kick you out, do you think it's because all bosses have conspired to be mean to you? Maybe you know more about the bans than we do. Maybe they where all unjustified, but you don't want to explain, for some reason. If so, that's fine. But if you don't want to counter Cerato's accusations, why continue this fight? Only continue your discussion with him if you have concrete responses. If you want to stop talking to him, don't worry. I can delete any unprovoked attacks on you by Ceratodromeus in this case.
I can easily explain why I was banned of two other forums, but I never because I thought its of no relevance to this thread. And its a waste of my time to be honest. For no reason Cerato just started talking shit and trolling, when I'm on this thread to discuss tigers vs Brown bears.
I don't even want to waste anymore of my time talking to him. But if you guys wanna hear why I was banned off other forums, then I'll explain why. No problem. |
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mountainlord
Member
Tiger - The Legendary Killer of Brown bears
Posts: 309
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Post by mountainlord on Dec 31, 2019 8:10:25 GMT 5
BrobearNo, that is far from evidence. This also proves your complete lack of knowledge of big cats. Brobear, a tiger is NOT a leopard. Far from it. Leopards are not these massive, dominant apex ruling predators of the forest, like tigers are. The tiger on the other hand, is the most dominant and most supreme ruling animal in the forest, which even the bears, adult Elephants and Rhinos show fear off. Ask any big cat handler, and they'll all tell you for a fact, that tigers, lions and leopards all differ in their nature. Lions lose their tempers more quicker and are more stubborn in their nature, tigers are very vengeful beasts, more ferocious and ruthless in their nature and leopards are more shy, unpredictable and probably hate human contact the most. The social structure and lifestyle of these different sub-species of cats completely differ from one another. Any big cat expert will tell you that. On top of this, leopards don't heavily predate on bears the way tigers do and are renowned for. Huge difference! You have stated the total opposite of this on Wildfact. Remember here, when you admitted that there's probably been hundreds of cases of tigers killing full-grown male grizzlies:  So why are you lying for now? I have already posted the evidence a BUNCH of times already, directly to you too. So what the hell are you on about? Everyone on this forum knows I've posted the evidence and accounts of tigers dominating and killing Brown bears over kill-disputes. How many more times do I have to post the evidence to you now? Suicide? LOL...All the evidence clearly confirms is that tigers DOMINATE Brown bears over kill-disputes. Biologists like Rukovsky and Matjushkyn's accounts confirm this. You on the other hand have absolutely no shred of evidence that shows Brown bears "dominate" tigers in kill-disputes. All the evidence is overwhelmingly in the tigers favour. You just blatantly lie and go off your own assumptions and theories. If tigers prey on mature she-bears "rarely" according to you, then how comes there's TONS of accounts throughout history of tigers killing adult female Brown bears? I showed you at least 8 accounts of adult Brown bears killed by tigers. As well as countless references and statements from biologists and authorities stating that tigers even prey on larger Brown bears. Tigers don't "rarely" prey on mature she-bears because there's just too many accounts of this happening throughout history which proves it happens far more often than you assume. Mature male Black bears are well known to flee up tree's even when sensing a tigers presence. Very rarely will a mature male Black bear show no fear. These are exceptional cases. In general, most bears fear tigers. Remember I posted this video previously?, where it was stated that all of the bears are afraid of the tigers.
Go to the 13:18 mark: Brobear, look out for my new thread I'll be making. I'm gonna post all the fight statistics and kill-dispute accounts and interactions that confirm that tigers dominate Brown bears. This thread will also expose your blatant lies and made-up fairytales. - Unlike you, I'm gonna post accounts directly from the Russian biologists/authorities in this regard.
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